Scientists baffled by religious education curriculum

Spain: where your divine interpretation of the cosmos can affect your grades

LAST UPDATED: 3 Mar, 2015 @ 20:28
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A NEW government-pioneered high school religion course has baffled scientists.

high school spain

Spanish high school students will be examined on their ability to ‘recognise the divine origin of the cosmos with amazement, make effort to understand it and be aware that it does not originate from chaos and chance.’

The PP-approved curriculum has been published in the Official Gazette.

This fits in with the education law, the LOMCE, passed in 2013 in spite of opposition party disapproval.

The 2007 curriculum was adapted in that issues including abortion, euthanasia and references to religions outside Christianity were eliminated.

The course also raised eyebrows by measuring the individual’s ability ‘to achieve happiness all by him or herself.’

The curriculum, drafted entirely by bishops since 1979, is an elective module but the marks now count towards final grades, making it more relevant.

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49 COMMENTS

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  1. This idiocy further illustrates the cold, dead hand of religion that still strangles Spain.
    It suits the right-wing PP admirably, aiding them in the mindlessnes that their agenda requires.
    Religion, of all kinds often goes hand in hand with authoritarian governments.

  2. What is the problem here. If you are not amazed at the divine origin of the cosmos and are not aware that all that exists did not originate from chaos and chance–then indeed you are NOT educated, no matter how hard you try to pretend that you are!

    The FOOL says in his heart, There is no God.

    (I am a lifelong public educator.)

  3. Some scientists, all scientists, anyone in particular? What kind of journalism is this? Did whoever wrote your headline also write (or read) the so called report? Instead of giving scientists a bad name, this article just reflects a knee-jerk response to anything to do with religion that actually involves thinking.

  4. Paul F.
    in my world you would never be allowed anywhere near children – you are a lifelong brainwasher. You are not even a fool, you are a coward terrified to take responsibility for your own life. One day all the religious and political freaks will have to be dealt with – permanently.

  5. @Paul F: In my old neighborhood, you, and people like you had to register on a public list. And you certainly wouldnt be allowed near children.
    Havent you ever noticed that the most modern, civilized, stable countries with the highest standards of living, seperated out church and state a long time ago…? Its not a coincidence that removing dark-age bigotry from schools improved societies. try reading more than one book.

  6. Stuart speaks like the typical Hitler. Far better men than you have spoken: EDUCATION IS USELESS WITHOUT THE BIBLE. (Noah Webster, creator of the famous dictionary) THE BIBLE IS THE BEST GIFT GOD HAS EVER GIVEN TO MAN. WITHOUT IT WE COULD NOT KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG. (Abraham Lincoln) IT IS THE ROCK UPON OUR REPUBLIC RESTS. (Andrew Jackson) Christianity has been perverted by many, and most religion in the world is false. That does not in any way detract from what is true religion, which is based in Jesus Christ who is God expressing himself in love to fallen, sinful humanity as Redeemer and Savior. But to be saved, you first must recognize your sinfulness and that you need a Savior. There is no other name given among heaven and earth by which mankind can be saved but that of Jesus, before whom one day all mankind shall stand for judgment. Now is the day to repent of your sins and turn to God.

  7. You are right to say that all successful countries separate politics from religion. Meanwhile ISIS, the epitome of dark-age bigotry, are doing the complete opposite.

  8. Most religion is false and evil, including much that masquerades as Christianity. It has departed from the true faith of the Bible–just as the apostles foretold would happen. So, sadly, your experience has been with the apostate, counterfeit, pseudo-Christian religions afflicting the world: the religion of papists, Mary-olatry, the religion of state control and Episcopal lordship–none of this in any way resembles the church of the New Testament. The church of God still exists, but you will not find it in the typical televangelist begging for funding and pretending to work miracles while pushing over people with a touch on the forehead. Such impostors, including the one claiming to sit on the so-called throne of Peter in the Vatican, are all a mockery of true Christianity, defined by an apostle as this: Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. (James 1:27) Don’t make the mistake of imagining that you and all you see around you are the result of serendipitous accident. All men will one day be brought before God to give account to him. No one can stand in peace before him without the Savior, Jesus. If you reject him, you will have forever in eternity to regret it.

  9. He has to be a American. Tel me Paul – why do you call your sky pixie Jesus – you do know that if he ever existed and that’s a big IF he would have been a Hebrew yes? Now tell me what language the name Jesus comes from – do you even know? if you do you are faced with a big contradiction – do you even realise that.

    Andrew Jackson – a total disgrace to the Scottish people – thou shalt not kill – recognize that commandment do you – Andrew Jackson had a nickname did’nt he – the Indian Killer. He used to delight in killing the indigenous people of a country he was’nt invited to live in – ergo an illegal immigrant. He was responsible for the brutal murder of thousands and thousands of these people, he killed not only the men but women and children as well – a typical Christian – if your not white your vermin. Perhaps you have some kind of excuse for the undeniable fact that ever since the success of the colonists in kicking out the British, you God fearing Christians broke every treaty you ever forced the Indians to agree to. They set about with a very simple plan to exterminate all the indigenous people. They were very good at this – 17 million and counting still and all carried out by untermenschen like Andrew Jackson. In fact you have murdered more human beings than Adolf and Joseph ever did. Did your Abe Lincoln do anything to stop this slaughter – no he encouraged it – another good Christian.

    Believe in nasty fairy tales much easier than to face reality that requires at least a little courage. BTW just where is Heaven and indeed where is Hell – never met a Christian that could answer this simple question. The New Testament was cobbled together by a bunch of Roman mysoginists circa 200AD not very kosher that is it?

    Of course you will not/cannot make any kind of rational or non abusive retort to the facts I have outlined – just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper.

  10. Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you. –Jesus, Matthew 7:6

  11. The prodigal son came to his senses and repented, which story beautifully illustrates the grace of the Father. That is an entirely different situation from those who despise a holy God. Their awakening will occur irresistibly when too late, one day. Jesus knew that only the humble of heart who would admit their need could come to him. He had very strong language for those blind pretenders who trusted in their own goodness, the religious hypocrites of his day. He went willingly to the cross for you and me. On the third day he was raised in glorious power. The disciples, who had been cowering behind locked doors, soon emerged boldly to do what he had commanded them. What changed them from abject timidity into bold proclaimers of the Good News? The RESURRECTION! Here is the greatest story ever told! For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that every one who believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting LIFE.

  12. I really hope Paul. F is just taking the pi$$. Surely there can’t be teachers out there that are still brainwashed with this religion garbage? Just take a look at the middle east and all that is going on there in the name of ‘religion’. You would be better off believing in a magical elf that lives at the bottom of your garden and farts out golden coins, Paul.

  13. Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my mind for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me as a by-product the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It is like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I cannot trust my own thinking, of course I cannot trust the arguments leading to atheism, and therefore I have no reason to be an atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God. (C. S. Lewis)

  14. It is the height of ignorance to conflate FALSE religion and demonic activity (which certainly exists and most dramatically so evidenced with ISIS) with TRUE religion, which is the expression of the love of God!

  15. Thinking is a function of space-time and can never operate in the moment, ergo thought is not reality, only reality is real and reality cannot be experienced if you thinking since reality never operates in the past, only the here and now.

    Paul F’s argument is a classic case of metal dysfunction. He was born and someone gave him the name of Paul, this is only an ‘indentification symbol’ which can be spoken or written it could be anything but in this case happens to be ‘Paul’. He was then indoctrinated into a belief system which in his case was Christianity (it does’nt matter what schism of this belief system it was). Just as easily he could have been indoctrinated/brainwashed into ‘thinking’ of himself as Fascist/Maoist/Moonie etc. etc.

    Now this has happened to many people throghout the ages but for those with a grain of courage and intelligence – they grow up and question this brainwashing. When they see what has been done to them they deprogramme themselves.

    Some of us are lucky and don’t have brainwashers as parents but are taught to think for ourselves and question everything.

    My father grew up in a very tough part of Glasgow at a time when you had to be both mentally and physically strong just to survive childhood. He saw the insanity of Catholic/Protestant violence and he developed a strong revulsion for all forms of religion. Later on he saw the hyprocracy of all forms of politics.

    Paul F uses an hilarious argument that certain chemical reactions result in thought – I’ve never heard that one before. The ego is the result of programmmig by parents and the society you grow up in – first you hear the sound of your ‘name’ being constantly repeated so you ‘indentify with this ‘sound’ then you are programmed to accept that you ‘belong’ to a certain people/race/creed and culture and that this defines you as to who and what you are.

    You now have a rigid indentity which traps you (if you are weak or the programming very strong) and any questioning of this identity can result in mental instability. If others who don’t believe in your mindset criticise this they become an enemy which must be destroyed in order to return to the safety of your ‘identity’.

    Thinking can never be ‘true’ because it is the comes from the past (space-time) and this programming filters reality to suit the belief system into which the thinker has been indoctrinated – so the thinker can never experience reality.

    The intelligent application of thought is very useful but only in the act of physical application. Sartori or enlightenment only comes about when the mind is free of the straightjacket of ‘indentity’.

    When Einstein was a schoolboy a teacher set the class a brilliant question – what is the most important creature on this planet for sustaining life. He alone gave exactly the correct answer – the honey bee. Without this insect there would be no pollination and life as we know it would not have survived. How could this young boy arrive at this awareness – because his mind was free to examine all the data he had aquired and evaluate free of ‘the indentity prison’.

    Van Gogh questioned everything and eventually discarded all the indoctrination of his childhood and came to see that everything in life is a manifestation of energy. He saw this energy clearly but never met another human being that did, so he lived his life from then like someone in solitary confinemnet. To those who were ‘programmed’ his paintings made no sense but all his paintings were about energy in all it’s amazing forms.
    It is no surprise that the children of the 60s’ saw and indentified with his work. If you should ever get to go to A’dam make sure you visit the art museum dedicated to his work, it’s great for deprogramming. His final work the crows over the divided cornfield should bring tears to your eyes because you can clearly see that he can endure no more.

    Paul F cannot escape from his rigid dysfunctional ‘thinking’ because to him it would be the ‘collapse into chaos’ – sad but true for all those who believe and cannot/willnot ‘see’.

    • What nonsense you preach, Stuart. Everyone undergoing education is being ‘indoctrinated’. The fact that you missed out on the most important subject (Christianity), which, with its ups and downs, has formed our Western civilisation is really just ignorance.
      And most of the ‘ups and downs’ have been caused by ignorant men in power throughout the last 2000 years, Kings, Emperors, Dictators, even Popes!
      Without Christianity we would exist in a God-forsaken land akin to N. Korea.

  16. My original reply to Paul F was lost when I had a senior moment with the keyboard. I thought about returning but decided I was wasting my breath.
    Paul’s argument is a variation on the classical argument from design
    The normal riposte to this is if you cannot accept signs of design without the need for a designer then who designed the designer?
    Arguments attempting to prove or disprove God are sterile. Belief in God and Atheism are matters of faith. If you want to enlist me do it by your actions. By their deeds shall ye know them (sent to bible class as a teenager)
    Bible quotes might make you happy but we both know that the bible was, at best, mediated by man.
    The Catholic church, along with others, has recently shown quite a deficit in the moral economy
    Kindness, tolerance and charity are the required currency. Make a deposit now

    • “The Catholic church, along with others, has recently shown quite a deficit in the moral economy”
      “Kindness, tolerance and charity are the required currency. Make a deposit now”
      Exactly, it also illustrates the fact that every institution is run and managed by that flawed species – mankind. And the very Church founded upon the two most important principles, ‘love and Charity’ is also subject to the failings of humanity.

  17. The origin of the universe is totally beyond the limited intelligence of mankind and always will be. Confident talk of the ‘big bang’ is in reality a smokescreen hiding our almost complete bafflement. We are confidently told that the universe started with a tiny particle before the big bang, etc., etc. Scientists are now stumbling around considering ‘parallel universes’, existing in the same physical space.
    To even consider the reality (think hard) of the universe confronts us with a brick wall – it is way beyond us and of course the Einsteins of this world. Laws of physics? Oh, where did they come from? No-one, not even the most ‘devout’ atheist, has the slightest clue.
    Stuart and Stefanjo, you may be happy thinking that you are just a superior kind of ape- well, I’m not.

  18. Keep it coming you bible-bashers. You’re always good for a laugh if nothing else. The funniest bit is the image of “God” with a quill-pen handing down his “book”. Give over you clowns.

  19. Paul F & Antonio: i not sure if you are both mad or incredible ignorant.
    Try reading some science books – basic physics will explain the last 5 billion years, minus the first fraction of a second, all without the need of any gods.
    Or try some basic psychology – human evolution and the social glue of common beliefs a.k.a. religion are explained in a simple manner that even you will understand.
    Either way, there are no gods.
    PS. Jesus was a Jew.

  20. Antonio,
    your sweeping, no room for debate – only I am right statements are a clear manifestation of a very weak and frightened mentality. Everyone can see that you are trying (miserably) to transpose your indoctrinated mentality onto me – you accuse me of ‘believing’ I don’t have or need a belief system – you do. All you are doing when you attack others is describing yourself. You need ‘certainty’ -guess what it does’nt exist.

    But your real insanity is to say that you are not an ape – sorry pal but you are a primate descended from monkeys that used to jump up and down in baobob trees in the Rif valley. I’ve always said what a pity that an enormous earthquake happened and sadly some of the monkey primates survived being lunch for a number of predators that thought the Winter Solstice came early – all the Christian holy days were stolen from other religions or cultures, Winter Solstice being used for Christmas.

    To say that European civilisation (not quite sure that we are very civilised) all came from Christianity is pure insanity. Ever heard of Persia/Mesopotania/Egypt/Greece who got most of their knowledge from the Middle east. Let’s not forget the huge input of knowledge that came from Islam – ever heard of mathematics?

    You cannot consider the Universe – that is what you are saying – what a sad and frightened little primate you are – you do realise that you would undoubtedly feel much more secure if you returned to your actual roots – oh sorry branches.

  21. @Antonio…….Find out what E=MC2 means and a little of quantum mechanics and you will discover that all you say is pure hogwash. No-one has EVER suggested that the universe started with “one particle”.

    Religión was invented by man to explain the unexplainable…..As science continues to unravel what has previously been a mystery, the god squads desperately cling onto that which is left in order to retain their hold upon their respective flocks….Religión is all about control over others and each of the main religions has it’s own method of retaining control.

    The fact that children are forcé fed this ritualistic nonsense as part of their ‘education’ is deplorable.

    • Pleased you’ve heard about Einstein’s theory of relativity, (as I did back in my early school days), but he didn’t ‘invent’ it, only ‘discovered’ it. It’s been in place since the dawn of the universe. And the ‘big-bang’ hypothesis does, as far as I am aware, depend on a tiny but infinitely massive particle being present to initiate it. Where the particle came from, how the big-bang was initiated, why, etc., is all way beyond our understanding and always will be. Humans with their limited intellect can only speculate. Only a few thousand years ago we were living in grass huts!
      I had forgotten to comment on the subject of this article, namely the relationship between State and religions. Of course the two should be separated, but at the same time politicians have to take into account the widely different interests or concerns of the population in order to form a representative Government and this includes religion, whether we like it or not. If the majority of parents wish their children to be taught religion, the Government must respond. It’s called democracy. If religion fades to be replaced by atheism and gross materialism, then Government policies will change to capture that vote. All quite simple really.
      As for being ‘force-fed’ the average child in my experience suffers from gross ignorance of even the basic principles of say, Christianity. The force-feeding comes with other religions, notably Islam, which in my humble opinion is totally unacceptable.

  22. All is illusion. All beliefs are delusion. The latin root of the word “religion” means “to bind again”.
    So binding or tying up comes to be applied as the common term for all the various teachings.
    Set yourself free from all delusion, eliminate desire and attachment. Practice meditation,achieve Nirvana. (To paraphrase the Dalai Lama.)
    Well, it’s no dafter than all the bible bashing that’s gone on here.

  23. @Antonio……The absence of religión in the education system does not necessarily mean that Atheism (another word for realism and not “materialism”) reigns supreme…..It simply means that the parents are given the freedom to introduce (not brainwash) their own ideas of religious beliefs……It’s quite wrong for government to dictate that (any) religión should form part of the school curriculum. That is tantamount to the exact opposite to your “democracy”…Christianity is no better or worse than other religions at brainwashing…….As a ten year old, at Easter time, I asked the R.E. teacher what exactly did the death of Jesús save us from, Hitler, Spanish Flu, Slavery, 20 million deaths in WW1?. I was immediately labelled as a heathen….And I then felt proud of my new status, I had a mind of my own.

    No particles existed at the point of the ‘big bang’…..It was a state of pure energy and our understanding will, given time, become clear……If it were left to the god squads all scientists would be burned at the stake for the ‘crime’ of heresy.

  24. The god squad never answered my question – why does their Hebrew sky pixie have a Greek name and why is Christianity a shoe-in for Greek mythology?

    They are so terrified by the thought of dying that they have to invent a fantasy called heaven, where they are going but everyone who does’nt accept their frightened b/s goes to a place called hell. These knuckledraggers are so intellectually challenged that they cannot even lift their heads to look at the wonder that is the night sky.

    Antonio, your right you have manifested clearly that you have a very limited and frightened mentality – back to the trees with you.

    • I won’t fall into your ways of verbal abuse,Stu., I’ll try to keep it at sub-16 year old debate level. Christianity’s ‘sky pixie’ in all probability spoke both Aramaic and Hebrew, and some of the disciples may have had knowledge of Greek, depending on where they had lived. All three languages were common at the time in that area.
      I’d love to muck about in the trees but my arms and legs don’t seem to be what they were a hundred thousand years back!

  25. Antonio,
    in no way have I been abusive but you have repeatedly scorned reality and were in complete denial about your origins until your last post.

    You have still not confronted the contradiction that a Hebrew boy would never have been given a Greek name or that it was a bunch of Greeks that invented Christianity. No ordinary Hebrews wold have had any knowledge of Greek – you mus’nt forget that according to your fairy story this Jesus character was brought up by humble people and was a carpenter – another contradiction. You need to see the dissection that prof. Sharma did on Christianity, very illuminating.

    The New Testament was cobbled together by a bunch of nasty Roman misogynists at a convention in 200AD in Rome. It’s a complete work of fiction that repeatedly contradicts itself.

    I suppose you are waiting for the Rapture so you can be resurrected and travel (by what means?) to this place called heaven, again can you supply co-ordinates of exactly where this place is – remember – thought is not reality, only reality is real or as the teacher Krishnamurti said – the content of consciousness can only be consciousness itself – simple is’nt it.
    By the way he also said ” there are no holy books, it’s all a nonsense” .

  26. According to my strictly ape-ancestry basic knowledge, both the Pope and Netanyahu agreed that he spoke Aramaic and Hebrew. But I bow to your obviously superior education which renders their opinions baseless.

  27. Stuart, surely you must know that the New Testament was originally written in Greek. Educate yourself a little from Wikipedia:

    Yeshua (????, with vowel pointing ???????? – y?š??‘ in Hebrew)[1] was a common alternative form of the name ?????????? (“Yehoshuah” – Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period. The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus.[2][3]

    The Hebrew spelling Yeshua (????) appears in some later books of the Hebrew Bible. Once for Joshua the son of Nun, and 28 times for Joshua the High Priest and (KJV “Jeshua”) and other priests called Jeshua – although these same priests are also given the spelling Joshua in 11 further instances in the books of Haggai and Zechariah. It differs from the usual Hebrew Bible spelling of Joshua (?????????? y’hoshua?), found 218 times in the Hebrew Bible, in the absence of the consonant he ? and placement of the semivowel vav ? after, not before, the consonant shin ?. It also differs from the Hebrew spelling Yeshu (???) which is found in Ben Yehuda’s dictionary and used in most secular contexts in Modern Hebrew to refer to Jesus of Nazareth, although the Hebrew spelling Yeshua (????) is generally used in translations of the New Testament into Hebrew and used by Hebrew speaking Christians in Israel.

    Appropriately, the name chosen for the Christ (Messiah), GOD appearing in human flesh, means SAVIOUR.

  28. 15Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
    He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
    16for through him God created everything
    in the heavenly realms and on earth.
    He made the things we can see
    and the things we can’t see—
    such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
    Everything was created through him and for him.
    17He existed before anything else,
    and he holds all creation together. (Colossians 3)

    1In the beginning the Word already existed.
    The Word was with God,
    and the Word was God.
    2He existed in the beginning with God.
    3God created everything through him,
    and nothing was created except through him.
    4The Word gave life to everything that was created,

    10He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

    14So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.
    and his life brought light to everyone. (John 1)

  29. Strange how all it needs is religious in the title to fetch out the orange boxes and preachers all trying to score points and convert/prove that their way of thinking is correct and the other way is wrong/fiction/fairy stories. Why not let people make their own minds up either way. I know what I think and right or wrong. I am happy with it.

  30. There are none so blind as those who will not see……Especially those who, according to the headline in this report, insist that “”students will be examined on their ability to ‘recognise the divine origin of the cosmos with amazement, make effort to understand it and be aware that it does not originate from chaos and chance””……This can only be described as government driven brainwashing sponsored (lobbied) by religious intransigents…..If mankind ever gets to colonise Mars let’s hope that scientists get the upper hand and write the Martian constitution declaring that any religion be banished from that virgin planet.

  31. 1) There are no gods – religion is a construct of social beings.
    2) The universe does not need, nor did it use, a creator – read some books.
    3) Jesus and his pals did exist – like ‘everyone’ else at the time they wanted their own religion – it was a profitable business! (& probably had fistfights with rivals).
    4) Read the gospals thrown out at the council of nicea for some great stories of gods.

    And Paul F – how many people have to say your mad before you realise you’re off your rocker?

  32. From time to time we get these American nutters on this forum. They surf the net looking for ways to express their insanity. Surely this forum is about life in Spain by those who actually live in Spain or have done so, like myself (9 years) or are thinking of living in Spain, so want to ask questions to this end.

    We had one nutter who was a nicotine junkie ranting against the change in the law in Spain over this terrible narcotic but did not live or ever visit Spain who lived in New York. Now we have at least one if not two spewing out their dysfunctional views about this nasty Catholic attempt to turn the clock back. I realise that for the editor it gives the forum a bit of sparkle but is’nt it time that he checks out their respective ISPs?

    Paul F & Antonio – do you live or have you ever lived in Spain, if not what the hell are you doing on this forum. I have to say that as a moderator on two audio forums I would have banned you both almost immediately. They remind me of Maoists who are 100% barking, instead of waiving the little red book of the paedophile Mao they have the religious equivalent in the bible. who will fetch up on this forum next some raving Moonies?

    I have a theory that all these religious and political freaks work as double glazing or insurance salesmen on steroids. They have absolutely no interest in discussion or reasoned debate, are always contemptuous of the opinions of others. Do not underestimate how dangerous to civil society they are, that’s the mistake that ordinary decent Germans made and by the time they had realised their mistake it was too late, same goes for revolutionary Russia. Once they gain sufficient numbers they set out on mass extermination campaigns like Nazis/Red Fascists/Catholic Conquistadores and always they have an ideology that says their actions are righteous – death camps/gulags, extermination campaigns against indigenous people/Cathars.

  33. Poor Stewart, so worried about my qualifications to speak here. Claro que vivo en Espana (Torremolinos), frente al mar. I have lived in Spain and Miami Beach during many years. I have university education well beyond the post-graduate level. I am multi-lingual, including fluency in Spanish, French, and Russian. I have lived for years in the former Soviet Union, with especial familiarity in the regions where conflict is most acute at present (Crimea; Donetsk) as well as Ukraine/Russia/Belarus/Baltics. I have spent much time in Poland, the Middle East, Cuba (years in Latin America), several years in western Canada, and traveled extensively in nearly all European countries. I have personally met presidents (Bushes, Reagan), R. Kennedy, Mikhail Gorbachev, and many celebrities. I have a certified IQ test average of 150. I am a multi-millionaire with three seafront properties on Costa del Sol and 13 properties in Florida, including my 10-million dollar residence. All of that means absolutely nothing. It is truth that matters. And it is to God that you and I will have to give account some day, whether you admit it now or not. You are scheduled for an irresistible encounter which you will not be able to refuse. You would be a fool not to prepare for it.

  34. What is strikingly obvious in these exchanges is the gulf existing in the manner of expression between Christians and that of some atheists . The latter are distinctly lacking in civility, with a quite nauseating turn of phrase, examples from Stuart Crawford.
    The debate is supposed to be concerned with the subject matter at the head of this column but has deteriorated into a one-sided slanging match, with the Nazis, Maoists and Fascists thrown in for good measure! The ‘debate’ is thus closed.
    Having the good luck to have ‘grown up’ in a family with eight children, with their two loving parents, (Yes, Stuart, those awful beings Catholics – and every one totally self-supporting, drug and alcohol free) I have learnt a degree of tolerance but find this exchange too objectionable to continue.

  35. Well, with all that loot Paul, the eye of the needle will prove to be a bigger problem for you than the perceived faults you see in Stuart will be for him. About time you divested yourself of it all, don’t you think?
    I have some suggestions….

  36. Paul F claims to be a ‘real’ Christian which of course is nonsense and like too many Americans is obsessed with material wealth – what a typical religious hypocrite – what would a real Jesus think of him, well we all know the answer to that one.

    Antonio, as a Catholic you believe that God will provide, sorry chum but it is this planet that sustains you and it is precisely those religions that encourage overbreeding that are destroying the capability of this amazing planet to cope wiith the numbers.

    It is you that is objectionable and you manifest clearly the mentality of the Catholic conquistadores – try using birth control and give this planet and the rest of us a chance.

  37. I live in two rooms and rent out the rest of my house. I support children living in poverty on other continents. I still drive the car I drove 47 years ago. I never stay in hotels nor dine out. ALL my assets are in living trust to the wonderful charity which I have supported for over four decades. I never eat in restaurants–dining out for me is a slice of pizza at Sams Club. I am selling my assets as quickly as possible in this economy to benefit these charities, my only heirs. My mansion (now divided into eight units) would be a tear-down and its value is only in the lot and its location. Nothing which I possess is my own; I am merely a steward of what belongs to God. My life goal is to be a good and faithful steward of that with which I have been entrusted and to make my life count for good, which is the purpose of God for us all.

  38. I think the ‘discussion’ has run its course, Paul, nothing more to say except building bridges between Christian and atheist seems impossible and I’ve a feeling I know which side would be the first to use force if it came to it! Tolerance appears to be in short supply.
    No point in commenting on your own posts, ref. papists etc!

  39. Whatever you own or don’t own Paul, One thing you ARE possessed of is, one mighty overweening ego.
    What we called “a big ‘ead” in less enlightened times.

  40. All to the contrary. No one receives salvation unless he repents–admitting his wickedness and CONFESSING his sinfulness and need of a Saviour. Those who think that they are good in themselves, not needing to receive Jesus as both Saviour and Lord, are the proud ones who will be turned into hell at the Day of Judgment. You ignore the warnings and the salvation which is offered through believing in (obeying) Jesus to your own eternal destruction. Now is the day of offered mercy. For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that WHOEVER believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

  41. @Paul: you really are quite the comedian!
    I can’t wait to see you in Asgard. its next to Tuat in case you loose your way.

    Quick question. How does your religion explain the multitude of other non-compatible religions that existsed *before* yours?

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