Hot topic: Gibraltar

LAST UPDATED: 16 Jun, 2012 @ 07:29
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Hot topic: Gibraltar

SPAIN and Britain’s foreign ministers reaffirmed their commitment to the Trilateral Forum, after a tete a tete last week with Gibraltar the hot topic of conversation.

At a press conference in London, Trinidad Jimenez and William Hague said the trilateral process continued to make progress at official level.

This came despite newspaper El Pais claiming that Spain had gone cold on the trilateral process.

According to the report, tensions over judicial, policing and environmental issues – particularly involving the Rock’s territorial waters – had created a barrier to progress that Spain was in no hurry to overcome.

While Jimenez said that Spain still supported the forum, she acknowledged that the areas still under discussion were “particularly sensitive” but expressed confidence that progress could be achieved.

38 COMMENTS

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  1. The territorial waters issue is a red herring, brought about by the far-right Partido Popular in order to attack the PSOE government in order to achieve political advantage within Spain.

    There is nothing new regarding the British Gibraltar Territorial Waters (BGTW). The rest of the world recognises these waters as British as evidence by Gibraltar’s vibrant shipping industry and Admiralty Court and Spain has never dared to challenge this in international tribunals as it would surely lose.

    Meanwhile Gibraltar continues to suffer armed incursions by the Guardia Civil paramilitaries as the Foreign Office controlled plastic boats of the once mighty Royal Navy look on with indifference. Nelson would roll around in his barrel of brandy if he were alive today!

  2. Notwithstanding what Albert says, is it not interesting that “incursions” and “incidents” have only happened in Gibraltar waters since PSOE has been in power. However much they spout retoric, this sort of thing never happened under the PP or even Franco…

  3. When Franco was in power there were buoys demarcating the Bay of Gibraltar at the meeting point of BGTW and Spanish waters. The RN would ensure that the gunboat sent by the Armada Española, known in Gibraltar as ‘Smoky Joe’ was kept well away.

    Incursions are not something new. We had armed paramilitaries from the landing on our beaches and even firing shots during the Aznar regime.

  4. Spain has always disputed those waters, the only difference is that in recent times there has been a more serious will to vindicate the Spanish sovereignty of those waters. And in that sense it is irrelevant which party is in control at
    Moncloa.

    Gibraltar has no recognized waters under international law, that is just a misleading concept repeated again and again by gibraltarians and their british fellows. The Convention of the Sea when signed by Spain clearly says that it does not recognize those waters as being held by a foreign power. They were Spanish and remain so because they were never ceded under any Treaty to the foreign power that usurpates temporarily part of our territory. Why risking that evidence taking it to a Court that, as we have seen with Kosovo, serves only to the interest of the Great Powers? If any international recognition for those waters it will be that of ‘disputed territory’, as proven by the fact that the EU recently accepted waters around the Rock as a place of enviromental interest under Spanish supervision.

    From now on all you can expect is an increasingly assertive position on the Spanish side regarding this issue, even more when year after year our material means get closer and closer to those of the RN. There’s a parity now, if not Spanish supeiority in forces near the Rock, and I’m looking forward that in not a very distant time our maritime forces will look tete a tete to those of Britain in general terms. And that would give a tremendous leverage to the Spanish negotiators.

  5. Carlos, please get your facts right.

    1. UNCLOS applies to Gibraltar as it does to any other country or territory.
    2. Under UNCLOS Gibraltar has the right to territorial waters in exactly the same way as any other country or territory
    3. It is true that Spain entered a declaration on ratification of UNCLOS that it did not consider UNCLOS to be applicable to Gibraltar, however this declaration has absolutely no legal effect. It is meaningless. Spain knows this very well. Read Article 309 of UNCLOS.

    The fact that waters were not mentioned in any treaty prior to UNCLOS is irrelevant as UNCLOS supercedes any prior treaty.

    The maritime conservation area you mention has been challenged in court. It was obviously an oversight on the part of the EU.

  6. Spain’s push to regain Gibraltar will be always be hobbled by its territories in Morocco. Until Spain gives up Ceuta and Melilla, this is dead issue.

    coul not have put it better myself Niko, so i just copied and paste it, if thats not blatant “want our cake and eat it” then i dont know what is!!!

  7. I will accept the Ceuta and Melilla comparison when the following points are fullfilled:

    1.-Someone standing in any corner of GB can actually see Gibraltar with the only use of his own eyes.

    2.-When you can actually travel from GB to Gibraltar in 7 minutes.

    3.-When the UN lists Ceuta and Melilla as territories to decolonize.

    4.-When Spain displaces the UK as the No-1 country with territories pending decolonization.

    5.-When the UK proves that Spain did not exist in 1704.

    That’s about it by now.

  8. Carlos, why do you bother to post on a topic you clearly know nothing about? FACT: Gibraltar HAS territorial waters. No land cession has EVER been made with “dry coasts”, the custom of the time was double cannon shot were territorial waters. UNCLOS clarified matters further and stipulated that EVERY territory had automatically 3 nautical miles, and could extend this to 12. Where this is not extended those waters are by default international waters.

    It is the spanish govt who keep repeating the lie that it does not apply to Gibraltar, but interestingly refuse to take the matter to the ICJ as they know they will be laughed out of court.

    UNCLOS itself specifies that no reservations can be made upon signing the document and that any reservations or exceptions would have no legal effect whatsoever.

    spain can “assert” what it likes, but will continue to be wrong. spain’s position is unsustainable in law and they know it.

  9. Of course no counter-argument against Ceuta, Melilla or Canary Islands, because they are spanish even before Morocco was created, or considered as a country. The UN doesn’t consider them as colonies, neither does any country in the world with some stupid exceptions. That is, Spain has no colonies.
    Also most of the arguments are about the retrograde comments of spanish people, I would also talk about the retrograde way of thinking of some british and their colonial ideology.
    Why do we want it do you ask? UK should also ask itself why do they want it.
    You also talk about the rights of the gibraltarians, I would talk about the rights of the spaniards that lived there and were expelled, and the right of Spain to be united, little I mind about what others think, it is important to us.
    PEOPLE SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT COLONISTS HAVE NO RIGHT TO STAY, AND OF COURSE THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO CREATE A NEW COUNTRY. And with this I mean, they have the right to stay as british citizens like germans would be in Mallorca.
    But no country supports Gibraltar still being british as a colony, and of course colonists have no right to create a new country.

    Finally I can distinguish 2 ways of interpreting this conflict:
    The first is a clear interpretation of the Utretch Treaty, by which the UK would lose half of the territory in the North of Gibraltar, including 30% of the residences, the hospital and the airport. Also would they lose the international waters they have seized, because the treaty talkS about one shot of cannon (has someone up there talked about 2 shots?), the article talks about some international recognition, I laugh at it. Also will be the aspirations of Gibraltar of becoming a country as the final disposition talks about the right of Spain to be given back Gibraltar before any other changes of sovereignty.

    The other way is to consider the Treaty as broken (it is broken, don’t need to be erudite to see it), regarding this, any person that has studied law will see that international treaties unilaterally broken have irretroactive consequences. In a few words, Gibraltar should have come back to Spain long ago.
    The Treaty is broken for the causes I mentioned above, and the most important. Gibraltar was prohibited from having any jurisdiction and since 1969 it even has a constitution.

    Anyway this conflict is dead, no answer by uk, no intention. Proceedings paralized by ‘La Haya’…
    However the will of spaniards is not dead at all, ask any spaniard. I dread to think about the ”in extremis” solution, that is militar intervention, but I see no other solution. If the militar intervention was brought up, I would have no choice but to support it.

  10. I think having the British in Gib gives extra security and money / jobs to the local economy and this Macho Spanish aggression is what I see a lot of in the Town Halls. Why not put your efforts into something more important. Spain has over 21% unemployment and I can see why.The UK is a multi national country and although there are some people that would like to kick out all non whites they are in the minority. I can see why we work better as a country than Spain. Spain has its good points (sun and cucumbers) so don’t get me wrong, just move onward and upwards. The Spanish corruption and the outlook of the politians holds the country back. I think you need to attract more tourists, not less. Invasion! That is a friendly welcome for people reading this.

  11. Pedro,
    what a complete tonto you are.

    The Aryans, Goths/Visigoths and little Swabians who illegally entered Spain used the Inquisition to steal as much land from the Euskadi and Catalans as they could.

    Both these people do not want you in their lands – you are uninvited aliens in their lands.

    So get out of Catalunya and Viscaya – pay back all the wealth you have looted from these people over the centuries – come to that pay back all the wealth you looted from Central and South America as well.

    If Viscaya and Catalunya decide to secede (and why should’nt they) from Spain, you who call yourself Spanish will be desitute in no time at all.

    All the energy and intelligence in ‘Spain’ comes from these two native peoples. All the industry in centred in those two lands.

    When it happens, don’t you come on your long suffereing donkeys to Bruxelles looking for a hand out.

  12. Hi

    The big problem here is that neither side is willing to really think about the big picture here. I think both sides should put their hands up and plead guilty in the past to some issue or other. Lets move on – gibraltar needs spain as much as the campo area needs gibraltar. Why not accept this, why not actually make life better for both sides. The current airport fiasco is a typical gibraltar white elephant, built without actually acquiring or leasing the land it needs to make this an effective structure, bringing jobs to both gibraltar and la linea. Why is there not an effective plan and co-operation whereby both sides benefit. The big problem which will never go away is the them and us attitude which exists on both sides of the frontier – eliminate this, bring about proper co-operation by the guardia civil and RGP in terms of smugglers, bring about proper economic co-operation and development, bring about more harmony, and you would see how if La Linea benefitted from an economic lift, these issues would go away. The hard pill here is that both sides need to clean up their houses.

  13. reap: You know nothing about the situation of Gibraltar I see…, Gibraltar was dead before Spain opened the fence, They needed money injections from the UK because they were not self-sufficient, that is, if spanish workers weren’t there producing, Gibraltar would be worse than Spain is.
    Also you’re watching it from a bad perspective, it is not about the utilitarism of being from the UK or from Spain, the fact is that Colonies are not allowed nor supported by the international laws, also the general views are that Gibraltar is Spain, no more discussion is left here.

    Stuart Crawford: Your comment is so anachronistic that you lost validity with the first phrase. How could you mix Visigoths (Year 415), with Inquisition (1480),(what about Spain under the muslim rule, or the Catholic Kings rule?) you have no idea about the history from Spain, so stop talking nonsense.
    Next thing, you have no vote and no voice in spanish issues, first because you are not spanish and second because you have no idea about the situation, even if you still talk nonsense, stop interfering in spanish conflicts because we don’t do it with your conflicts, we would even give you support…
    However I will tell you that the independence of the Basc Country (A comunity in Spain, are you talking about Viscaya? I told you, you have no idea…), and Catalonia. Is an issue that implies Spain as a whole, because the people living there are not bascs, or catalans, but spanish as in Spain we are so mixed that there is no possibility to make that difference. Also there have been polls about the independence, and they have never got a valuable results, so that means they won’t be independent because they DON’T WANT. They are just a few, but they make a lot of noise, that’s it.
    If you wan’t to discuss some issues, you should start by the disintegration of the UK, and the conflict with Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales… I don’t know why did you bring up this issue, if it has nothing to do with Gibraltar but ok.

    ken durante: In a way I can see what is your opinion, that cooperation is desirable of course, but the problems of Gibraltar stem from the different illegal actions that the United Kingdom has done. Starting from the seizure of territory during the spanish civil war, a complete dirty trick, or the tying up of boats with nuclear weapons among others… That doesn’t mean Spain hasn’t done bad things, but can anybody mention any actions Spain has done? Besides the supposed incursions of the Guardia Civil?? however in Spain what we know is the harassment of the Guardia Civil by the Royal Navy, and the Royal Navy shooting a Spanish flag just for entertainment…

    Nothing else to say.

  14. Pedro

    Ceuta, Melilla, Canarias and the other plazas de soberania are not on the list because Spain chose not to put them there. The UK voluntarily placed every single one of its colonies on the list. The UN never decided what was on or off the list. It was up to the colonial power to decide which of its territories it placed on the list or not. You also seem to forget that the UN clearly recognises the Gibraltarians’ right to self determination. That’s a fact, whether you like it or not.

    The predecesor polity to Morocco did exist when Ceuta, Melilla etc were taken by Spain, so stop telling porkies. Also you claim that Ceuta, Melilla etc have alwyas been part of Spain. Well actually Ceuta was not. It was Portuguese and when the joint monarchy ended the residents of Ceuta freely chose to become Spanish. A free choice you deny to the Gibraltarians.

    You bang on about retrograde UK colonial ideology. What drugs are you taking? The UK has offered independence to every single one of its colonies. Those who have wanted it have taken it. Some have freely chosen to keep the link.

    Oh, and irony of ironies, your statement that “PEOPLE SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT COLONISTS HAVE NO RIGHT TO STAY, AND OF COURSE THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO CREATE A NEW COUNTRY”. All you Spaniards are colonists on Moorish territory. Why do you think so many towns in the south of Spain have “de la Frontera” in their name? Before you start telling the Gibraltarians what rights they do and don’t have perhaps you should first check what rights you have!

    Pedro, you need to start living in the real world. Franco died decades ago…

  15. General Pedro – al ataque !

    Come on meng you can’t convince these British heathens with words – since they have no vision of your concept of history

    Action Man – Military Intervention !

    No one can say you didn’t warn them …….

  16. This last comment is so incredible…
    First, the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories was made by the UN and actualized by the commity for the decolonizations, also they both make pressure so that countries go on with them. Maybe what you refer is that UK accepted it, but that’s it. Stop telling lies.

    Next, again with the issues of Canary Islands, Ceuta or Melilla… it has nothing to do with Gibraltar, stop making excuses with statements out of issue…, they aren’t colonies because no one considers them colonies, why is it so difficult to understand?
    They are spanish even before the Great Britain, was Great Britain… Of course for sure before they would be from another kingdom, but if you want to go back in time, we could go back to the Roman Empire, and talk about england pertaining to it…

    Gibraltarians right of self-determination? The UN talks about a 3 party negotiations, and the respect of the gibraltarians’ interests. (They are not gibraltarians, but colonists, the real gibraltarians live in El campo de Gibraltar, and were expelled from the Isthmus to there…, those are the people with real rights.)
    There is no best way of respecting their interest than becoming spanish, don’t forget that gibraltarians depend on Spain, their economy, the well-being they have, depends on the spanish workers.
    Finally there is no doubt that Gibraltar is Spain, even if the soveraignty right now has it the UK, UK has accepted it, the UN too, but also every normal person that looks in a map will see it.

    Yes, UK’s colonial ideology.

    Stop giving excuses out of issue!, we are not talking about the moorish, or what is that of ”de la frontera”??, nothing to do with the issue. Talk about Gibraltar’s situation right now.

    Finally, UK (no one should dare to talk about corruption in Spain, as Gibraltar is a global point of Drug importation and illegal actions out of control) can’t control Gibraltar because of the distance. UK knows it, UN knows it, all countries know it.

    Gibraltarians have no right to self-determination because what they want is to keep this situation of illegality, no control and no taxes, but also colonists haven’t got such a right, don’t forget they are english and the natives living in ”el campo de Gibraltar”, are waiting to have their territory back. And the UN just recognizes a 3 party negotiations to respect the interests of Gibraltarians.

    Also they can’t be a country because there is no possibility of self sufficience, before they needed money injections from the UK, and after the fence was opened, they grew incredibly but thanks to spanish workers. Without them they would be nothing.

    So the situation is:
    1. It is a colony and UK can’t have the sovereignty. (Also you say UK has no colonial ideology, I laugh again…)
    2. The interests of Gibraltarians must be respected, of course, but the only country that can assure them that is Spain.
    3. They can’t conform a country, not self-sufficience, and Spain won’t allow them get in the EU, and the entrance must be accepted by all the countries unanimously.
    4. Self-determination is about continuing with the illegality, no control and no taxes, so it is groundless.

    There is a simple answer to the conflict, you should read between lines…

  17. Pedro
    So the whole point of your raging terrorism and will to raise arms to war against the British, NATO and the UN is because it was once yours and you want it back…similar to your ball bouncing over the fence and you are crying like a little baby because you want your ball back.
    Well let’s pretend we are in a fantasy world inside your Nationsilistic racist head and believe that Gibraltar is now a region in ASndaluci…..what happens next?
    Take a look acrooss the border and see…dereliction, prostittion, organised crime, corruption, protection rackets, planning fraud, balck economy, innocent people hit on the head with golf clubs as they leave a bar, cocaine infested youth, mass unemployment with young people having no hope.
    Its just that same as Spanish colonisation of the Americas….nothing to contribute only to take.
    The whole point of your vindictive war mongering is jealousy. Why don’t you get on your bike and do something about the rotten politics in your own country because it is an emabarressment to you and your nation.
    There are 7000 people who work in Gibralatr from SApain who take their wealth into Spain.
    When the gate wsas closed Gibraltar had Moroccan workforce and was a base for the NATO forces of Britain. Now that you are a laggard late member of Europe then why don’t you look at teh big picture about what can be achieved in collectivism and mutuality rather than greed.
    You want what you haven’t but on the same score you are not prepared to give back what you have?
    And what then…Moroccvor, The Western Sahara, Algeria, the World….de ja vue National Socialism?
    And as you correctly point out, Europen citizens that are non-Spanish Natioanls don’y had any rights to vote.
    How constitutional is that to equality?

  18. Chriistopher Gamble
    You call it terrorism, but international law provides the enforcement of actions when the peaceful solution of disputes doesn’t ‘happen’, and the UK does nothing but paralizing the proceeding.
    3 out of 4 of you started putting adjectives to my way of thinking, sometimes it happens that when there is no counter-argument, people resort to calification. Then there are some comparisons to the school patio, from people that doesn’t even know how to handle an adult discussion.

    Well, again with a bad perspective, its not about the situation of Spain, but about the situation of Gibraltar that is, illegal. We are still in the XXIst century but the UK still has colonies…

    First guirizano, tells me to stop thinking I live under Franco’s regime… Franco’s regime has been one of the worse regimes in the world, produced by a war that killed thousans of people, you have no right to call any spaniard supporter of a regime that killed his brothers, that is despicable.
    Now you talk about me thinking in a National-Socialistic manner, refering to Hitler’s regime I suppose… nothing to answer to this, read the previous parragraph.

    About the situation of Spain, you know that half of what you wrote is not true, but also that half of what you wrote is applicable to Gibraltar… corruption… drug importation tunnel… Black economy (no taxation at all…), all this situation is what Gibraltarians want, however I think that even if it is under UK rule or Spanish rule, it will disappear.

    Yes, Spain killed lots of native americans, but let me tell you something, we gave them a culture, a religion, a language, we finally mixed with them. However other european countries that you know pretty well, simply made a genocide and finished them off. Yes, what Spain did was bad, in order to take the control of course, don’t forget about which period we are talking about… But just how can you blame Spain right now.

    Not jealousy at all, don’t worry about it. And anyway I repeat the situation of Spain doesn’t matter, let’s just talk about Gibraltar its situation, and the International Law, that of course backs up Spain.

    I don’t understand your last point, about voting.

    You should read about my other posts, lots of your doubts would be dispelled…

  19. Pedro says
    ‘The interests of Gibraltarians must be respected, of course, but the only country that can assure them that is Spain’.
    So you will respect the people of Gibraltar by raising arms against them?
    The people of Gibraltar do not want to be part of Spain…95% majority. Are you in denial?
    The people in the Campo?
    Are you serously saying they want to leave there homes and take residence in a flat in Gibraltar?
    Who are these people?
    They can go and live in Gibraltar today…its part of EUROPE.
    Truth is you don’t want to live in Gibraltar you just want to take it.
    TAX FREE …its not TAX FREE. Its has tax benefits and so does Andorra does it not?
    When I last looked at the map, Ceuta was not in Spain.
    The Utrecht treat was with the Dutch…maybe take your issue up with them over this?
    Whilst the people of Gibraltar d not want to be part of Spain then so be it.
    And if the people of Ceuta want to be part of Morocco so be it.
    When you raise arms against Gibraltar as you say is your right then who are you going to shoot first?
    Gibratarian Spanish, Gibralatarian Spanish Jewish Indian African British Portuguese?
    Finally, you have a thing about British Imperialism yet British people don’t share your view of themselves as you like to portray. The British Empire is ancient history.
    There is only a trade across borders if there is a market demand.
    Britain is the most liberated and open market in the WORLD.
    Spain’s biggest market.
    How about removing guards and the rediculous single lane military style check-point at the frontier and provide free passage but make La Linea a low tax zone replicating Andorra.
    You can then queue up at your own country border for cheap fuel instead of queing up to get into Gibraltar to fill up…You have to admit ths is ludicrous Pedro as the fuel comes from Spain?

  20. “Gibraltarians have no right to self-determination”

    According to you Pedro, but not according to the UN. That right is very clearly defined.

    Oh and you just displayed a vast ignorance about how the C24 list came into being.

    “Stop giving excuses out of issue!”
    Well, that’s pretty much all you have managed to do – oh and I notice you have no defence for your hipocracy.

    Keep going Pedro, because it’s fun to wind you up and we all know Gibraltar will remain British until the Gibraltarians decide otherwise.

    And try to read the news please, you’ll notice a load more reports about drugs intercepted coming directly into Spain than Gibraltar. It’s Spain which is the gateway to Europe for drugs, not Gibraltar and that’s a fact.

  21. Chriistopher Gamble
    Of course if the economy from Gibraltar is depending on Spain, means that if Spain wasn’t there Gibraltar would probably need money injections in order to be efficient. This means that Spain can protect Gibraltar interests way better than UK, so if the fence was to be closed again, the consequences for its economy would be catastrophic.

    The only right that colonists have is to keep their houses because it is their property, other rights don’t exist. Of course their interests must be respected.
    The ones having rights are the people who were expelled.

    I’m sorry I was mistaken with the tax free, I didn’t mean to say that, but of course there are tax benefits, and it is this situation what Gibraltarians want to keep.

    The Utrecht treaty was not with the Dutch but with several European states, including Spain, Great Britain, France, Portugal, Savoy, and the Dutch Republic, you should have known that for being talking about this issue…, when we talk about a Treaty in history, we use to talk about a variety of treaties that finished a war…

    I don’t mind UK’s situation or the common wealth, but for sure, if you are trying to insinuate that the British colonies were not colonies, it’s a bad idea… you’d lose legitimacy…

    Again with the Ceuta issue, I’m not going to answer to this again. When I think about Spain, when all the people in the world think of Spain, think about Spain, Ceuta, Melilla, and Canary, Balear Islands and of course Gibraltar. Ask whoever you want.

    Last point, don’t try to make an ideal illegitimate situation, because ideal situations can be made regarding lawful acts. That’s it, and UK is not in the Schengen area so it’s not possible.

    Guirizano

    Please I would really want to know a specific legally binding provision were the UN gives the right to self-determination to the colonists of Gibraltar. It’s actually impossible to find something that doesn’t exist, however what you refer is to the fact that UN, rejected the proposal of the C-24 that ”territories affected by a sovereignty dispute don’t have the principle of self-determination”
    First of all this UN declaration is a mere declaration and is not legally binding, second of all it is no granted to Gibraltar, so if it is not specifically granted it is not binding, Finally what I meant is that international legal principles (Which are the least in hierarchy regarding international legal order, that is first would be treaties and conventions, then custom , and finally and with no possibility to go against the higher on the rank, the principles), can be surely overwhelmed even by custom, and customary rules say that colonists have no right to create a country that never existed before. And of course not a single principle can be applicable if it is against norms, and the reason why Gibraltar is asking for the use of that principle is because they want to keep their illegal situation, so there is no possibility to make use of it because principles have a specific interpretation, and you can’t make use of them to create an illegal situation.

    Again with qualifications…, but doesn’t matter, yes, with ”out of issue” I meant, incoherent, that is you are talking about the ‘reconquista’ (that as you know… started in 711) to give some kind of reasoning about why Spain has no right to ask for UK’s colonies to be back. You are incoherent, this is a qualification but at least is funded.

    And finally, I’m not saying that Spain is not corrupted, but as you know all countries are, in a more or less degree, and regarding this, if you write Gibraltar and corruption in google, you will see more than 2’5 million of results, and UK and corruption 41 million results.

    But however as I said, it’s not about the situation of Spain, but the situation of Gibraltar, it’s illegality and the right of Spain for the Integration of the coutry.

    I’m tired of discussing, by myself all along, so this is my last comment, I will read your answers so that you have the possibility of a proper answer.
    It was a very interesting discussion, I’ve taken some interesting points from it. But I have no time to keep answering to your comments I’m sorry.
    That’s it.

  22. Perhaps Spain can attack Gibralter with left-over cucumbers?

    Pedro, give it a rest. I remember one of your earlier arguments on this subject many aeons ago on another Gibralter related thread where you said Gibralter belonged to Spain because it is within the peninsula of Spain, until someone pointed out that Portugal was too. Doh. At least your arguments have become a bit more intelligent, but it’s a lost cause. You really are like a dictator when you incite military action against Gibralter. Bring it on. You will lose. Go live in Moron de la Frontera please.

  23. Hi Pedro, I’m just passing by to congratulate for your decent defense of Spanish rights over the town and garrison of Gibraltar IN Spain.

    A name some of you would find amusing, but let’s not forget that was the official name the british gave to Gibraltar until 1833. Of course they are not interested in reminding that anymore. As well as the fact that they also used to call the airport “Neutral zone” until late into the XXth century. Later on they built what they called an “emergency airfield”, knowing that building an airport was a breach of neutrality. This all was before we ended up with the fully upgraded airport we see now. Just another example of the dirty tactics Spaniards have been witnessing since the black days of August 1704.

  24. Pedro, you ask: “I would really want to know a specific legally binding provision were the UN gives the right to self-determination to the people of Gibraltar”

    I refer you to the UN Charter, specifically articles 73 and 74 and I also refer you to UN GA Resolution 1514. It could not be more clear. The UN accepted Gibraltar onto the C24 list, that means 1514 is applicable in full. No limits.The Gibraltarians have a right to self determination whether Spain likes it or not. And Spain knows this very well, which is why Spain has never tested its claim at the ICJ.

    Yes, and you are right, the C24’s proposal to limit self determination in the cases where a sovereignty dispute exists was shot down in flames. There is no limit to self determination, not because of a dispute, and especially not by the provisions of a treaty signed in 1713.

    Time for you and your franquista friends to wake up and smell the coffee.

    It’s called the “reconquista” for political reasons Pedro, because you Castillians believe that it was your territory for the taking – instead of the reality: It was land you stole from the Moors. Stop trying to twist historical facts.

  25. NOTHING IS OWED TO SPAIN. ACCORDING TO THE TREATY OF UTRHEC, CONFIRMED BY SPAIN IN THE TREATY OF VERSAILLES THE ROCK WAS GIVEN AWAY TO ENGLAND FOR EVER/TO PERPETUITY. THE ONLY ISSUE HERE IS THE OBSESSION OF SPAIN TO PRESS BRITAIN TO HAND OVER GIBRALTAR AND GIVE IT BACK TO SPAIN, NOTHING TO BE GIVEN BACK, THE GIBRALTARIANS DID NOT STEAL ANYTHING. SPAIN GAVE IT AWAY TO US AS A GIFT.
    GIBRALTAR NEVER SPANISH.

  26. Stephen,
    You’re wrong! Gib was not given to Britain as a gift. It was ceded with the aim not to be given to others or create an independent country. In such a case, it would have to be given back to Spain first. It is a colony recognised by Britain itself with no rights of independence. So, it means that before becoming independent it must be Spanish. It’s like a plot of land that belongs to you but you cannot sell it to your son or daughter or whoever you want to or separate this plot of land from your property, otherwise it won’t belong to you anymore, but to your neighbour who ceded it before it was yours and with this condition. So the future of Gibraltar WILL NEVER BE INDEPENDENT!!

  27. James, it is YOU who is wrong. Gibraltar is not a plot of land, it is the HOMELAND of the people of Gibraltar. It is not spain’s to claim nor Britain’s to give away. You clearly have never read the UN Charter which proves that your post is utter nonsense. The so called “reversionary clause” in Utrecht is clearly and unambiguously overruled and annulled by Article 103 of the UN Charter. Therefore independence IS a legal option open to Gibraltar in exercize of their right to self determination. There is no principle, nor has there ever been of decolonisation by forceful annexation in violation of the rights and wishes of the inhabitants of a territory.

    CARLOS: It is NOT TRUE, Gibraltar was known as the Town and Garrison of Gibraltar FULL STOP, it is spain that likes to add the extra bit.

    As regards the nonsense spouted by some regarding territorial waters; read UNCLOS.

    In the 21st Century in the Third Millenium, the ONLY principles that matter are DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM & SELF-DETERMINATION. The Gibraltarians are above all human beings, and thus entitled to the same human rights as the rest of the planet.

  28. Gibraltar sovereignty – After 10 years, let’s ask ourselves the question again and tell the World what we want!

    The Government of Gibraltar called a referendum on 7 November 2002 to establish the popular support for a proposal to share sovereignty of the territory between Spain and Britain.

    The Gibraltar referendum asked the people of Gibraltar their opinion in the following words:

    On the 12th July 2002 the Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, in a formal statement in the House of Commons, said that after twelve months of negotiation the British Government and Spain are in broad agreement on many of the principles that should underpin a lasting settlement of Spain’s sovereignty claim, which included the principle that Britain and Spain should share sovereignty over Gibraltar.

    Do you approve of the principle that Britain and Spain should share sovereignty over Gibraltar?

    Visit “http://www.GibBook.com” to cast your vote now!

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