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A PILE of discarded cigarette butts could have been the link to finding missing Madeleine McCann.
A witness claims the discarded butts were found on a shared balcony that had a bird’s eye view of the apartment in Portugal, from where toddler was snatched a few days before her fourth birthday in 2007.
However the tourist, who contacted the police, insists detectives never took vital DNA evidence from them.
She had stayed in the apartment a week after Maddie’s disappearance from Praia da Luz, while on a family holiday.
“You could see the front and back of the building from that view point,” she told detectives.
“It was as if there had been someone stood there for some time smoking.
“I thought that was odd and it could have been someone watching the McCann’s apartment to monitor their comings and goings.”
SY want to close the investigation now oops
“http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk/”
We told you
Neither does it matter what you say or think June in the greater scheme of things, now does it?
Grime may have still been with the SYorks police but on demob leave and his dogs were unlicensed from what I read, hence the controversy between NPIA turning a blind eye to him going and ACPO vociferously opposing it.
He was also wearing civilian clothes if you go and look at the video. He would have been in uniform if on official police work.
As for Scotland Yard wanting to close the investigation…I don’t think that is so. They have asked if they are to carry on as everything these days is budgeted and that is the reason behind this story.
and please do not expect me to read any of your anti McCann blogs as I will not do so any longer. I have seen more than enough twisting and turning of the facts to last more than a lifetime.
Not one of you has the full facts of the case, not even from the available files because they are incomplete. So you work on your own imaginings of what MIGHT have happened as opposed to what DID happen.
“http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/11/operation-task-canine-deployments-1-8-august-2007/”
Go and read this properly regarding 1) Martin Grime states he is retired from SYorks Police and 2) What alerts the dogs made but are totally uncorroborated. There was no proof of Madeleine’s DNA or cadaver odour anywhere…apartment or car.
He states also the dog was unusually interested and should have been in the sit position before entering the apartment. The video always worried me as it was quite obvious from the start the dog was overly excitable on entering 5a. Not right at all. Why was it excited outside of the apartment?
@Reality: The dogs showed us that Maddie died in that room, hence the cadaver odor, both in the room AND in the car rented afterwards…
As far as finding evidence that could be used, we can blame the McCaans and all the people who entered the apartment 5A BEFORE the Police could get there!
@ Pericles. the dogs did no such thing and you must surely realise this? the car was hired 3 weeks later! Where was Madeleine cleverly concealed in all of that time without smelling to high heaven?
Read thedogsdontlie blog and see Martin Grime himself say he was retired from SY Police and the way he relates how the dogs reacted. There we have cause for concern as we have no evidence as to why they reacted or what they reacted to.
There is simply no proof Madeleine has come to any harm at all and is probably still alive and waiting to be found. Poor little girl, why deny her this chance of recovery?
Amaral twisted everything to suit his own agenda. And as his track record is hardly squeaky clean, I will never believe a word that man utters and I am far from being alone in this matter.
If you look at the print edition you will see that Maddie was in Ibiza a couple of weeks ago, with a German family. Flew back with Lufthansa. Her father and her brothers (OP’s words, not mine) spoke German and she spoke British English. We have no idea to whom she was speaking, since apparently her mother (OP’s words) did not speak during the entire flight. It is reported that they contacted the British Police ( Force unspecified) and that the OP followed it up. Again, Force unspecified. They had no record, apparently. And he doesn’t know how to contact the McCanns either, to send them the photo. Brilliant stuff.
And you may not wish to know that Martin Grime is to be allowed to give evidence in a court in the USA – “http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120824/METRO01/208240420#ixzz24a3uvyi9” –
“Grime said the dogs detect only the generic scent of human decomposition. The dogs, he said, cannot determine identity, age, race, gender or the rate of decomposition.
Grime testified in court Friday that Morse has never had a false positive response, and that testing done just prior and after the dog worked in the Jones case was successful.”
I am aware of this PM. What the USA courts decide is hardly up to me. He wasn’t working Morse in Pdl but Eddie and Keela. And he himself has said on more than one occasion that unless there is corroborating evidence the alerts are not used in evidence in court. And jolly well right, they shouldn’t be.
Regarding the Lufhansa sighting…I hope he will continue on with his appeal to be listened to. I have not heard of this incident so cannot comment. Whoever thinks they saw Madeleine is obviously vigilant And so should we all be because there is no proof she has been harmed…not one tiny weeny iota of proof!
Pericles – “The DNA samples were not corrupted; it was just “too small for testing”.”
This means that there is no evidence. It doesn’t matter why the DNA didn’t work out – corrupted, no match, small sample, etc. The fact is that no actual evidence was produced as a result. It could be McCain DNA – it could also be Bigfoot DNA. Without a match we have no evidence and we can draw no conclusions.
Pericles – “The dogs showed us that Maddie died in that room, hence the cadaver odor, both in the room AND in the car rented afterwards.”
Unless a body was found the dogs did not show that anyone died in the room. We have no way to know if the signal was a true positive (person deceased and gone) or a false positive. It’s like in a drug investigation – a dog alerting to drugs never ‘proves’ that drugs were in a location. You have to actually find the narcotics. The dog itself alerting doesn’t provide any actual evidence. A dog alert is not “proof” in a legal sense – or in a scientific sense, due to false positives.
Also worth pointing out that for a cadaver dog to alert to a deceased body the body has to be in a state of decomposition. Not ‘rotting’ – but not simply dead. Unless we’re talking about a body that was sitting in this room, deceased for (at the absolute least) 48 hours, a cadaver dog should not signal.
And again, it is worth pointing out that, even if there are no other records of deceased in the room, a cadaver dog could alert to a previous body (that no one had known about/recorded). So even if the dog alerted correctly it proves nothing regarding the specific body alerted to.
So no matter how you slice it, there is no actual evidence showing that this McCain girl passed away in the room. It’s possible – but “no evidence” is the big key. The law doesn’t work on “it’s possible,” but on hard facts. It also works on a presumption of innocence – innocent until proven guilty. “Proven” being the key, with actual “proof” being nonexistent here.
Pericles – “As far as finding evidence that could be used, we can blame the McCaans and all the people who entered the apartment 5A BEFORE the Police could get there!”
Sure, you can blame them. And all other crime victims who accidentally tamper with evidence. That is actually the norm – not the exception. Victims are the ones who are the first people to stumble into crime scenes and they pollute the evidence. People see dead loved ones and embrace them; then contaminate the crime scene with their own DNA a a result. Burglary victims run around their homes checking to see what was stolen before the police show up. How do you think it works in real life – that the police know of the crime before anyone else and arrive on the crime scene before the victim discovers that a crime has even been committed?
This is, of course, all assuming that there was actually evidence in the an apartment. To reiterate – an assumption. No evidence was found, so we can’t conclude that there was any evidence to begin with.
You realize all of this is why these people have not been charged and convicted of a crime, correct? Because, despite an abduction/murder investigation, there is no evidence. No DNA. No body. No witnesses. Nothing that would give the police a leg to stand on, regardless of if she is dead or alive, or who is guilty or innocent.
Click on “Read our latest print edition”. It’s on page 12.
PAM ” because there is no proof she has been harmed…not one tiny weeny iota of proof!” On the official web site they say “There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Madeleine has been harmed.” But later Kate herself says, – “All missing children are vulnerable to exploitation including sexual exploitation, with this being the motive in many of those cases of stranger abductions. . . ” – and later – “My thoughts of the fear, confusion and loss of love and security that my precious daughter has had to endure are unbearable – crippling. And yet I am not the victim, Madeleine is. No child should EVER have to experience something so terrible.” By my limited understanding, that counts as harm, and slightly more than “one tiny weeny iota” though I stand to be corrected.
PM…why do you find the need to go on about this then? If you feel she died, that’s your choice entirely, but thinking of her that way will not help in finding her.
There was not a shred of evidence Madeleine died in 5a or that she has died since so the right and proper thing for us to do is to carry on the search. Like Joanna Cipriano…they have both been abducted in much the same way and from neighbouring towns.
Of course Kate will have gone through a multitude of fears and feelings…that is normal. So what is your problem?
Pam – “There is simply no proof Madeleine has come to any harm at all and is probably still alive and waiting to be found.”
In a kidnapping/murder it would be normal if there is no immediate proof that the abducted has come to physical harm. These people just disappear. There are tens of thousands of cold cases of missing people – people missing for decades. And most never get found. If someone is dumped into the ocean, for example, there isn’t going to be any evidence. Basically it’s again a case of “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” We can’t assume simply because there aren’t bloody footprints that she is most likely alive.
And actually, since 76% of non-parental abductions end up with the child dead (source referenced earlier in the comments), she is ‘probably’ dead. That is, the probability of her being dead is 76%. And the longer a person is missing the more likely they are to be found dead (if found at all).
I don’t see anything especially wrong with keeping an eye open or keeping your hopes up. It seems naive to me, but there is nothing that makes you a liar, or evil, or an ‘old woman’ or a bad person. And sometimes you actually do find people alive – even decades later. But it is very rare.
So in a way, I kind of disagree with everyone. All of the people talking about dogs “proving” something are obviously wrong. But at the same time this girl is probably actually dead.
@ Reality. I do see and understand your point regarding the 76% but then that means 24% chance of Madeleine and Joana and others who have been abducted (numbering many hundreds if not thousands since or around that time) are alive and as has been seen in recent years, some do return home. So it is the wise and only decent thing not to give up on these children.
These people seen here have a different agenda however. They are supporting in every way they can, Amaral and those they seem to feel we have a grudge against. There is no grudge only with certain few police who have been inept to say the very least.
I stand for justice and for hope that one day those who have perpetrated the crime will be caught and punished. I also hope that in finding out who has been responsible that other children may just be found. It maybe naive, but if this is part of a child trafficking gang, then why would this not be the case?
I am frightened to see how nasty and downright vicious the people against the McCanns can become when confronting those they refer to as pros. Twitter is even worse as people seem to feel they are anonymous behind their computer screens and with false identities. They should know they are not.
Will be thankful when this whole sorry saga comes to an end, but until it does, I will remain a firm supporter of the McCanns. For all they did wrong, they are human beings with human failings and above all of that they are grieving parents who are trying so hard to find answers and I find that admirable.
Madeleine was in Ibiza ? two weeks ago. And its a fact? dear God, perhaps she was clubbing too
Pam you consistently FAIL monumentally to understand that Mr Grimes dogs have been very successful in their work in the UK Eire and USA both BEFORE and AFTER this case
Pam – “@ Reality. I do see and understand your point regarding the 76% but then that means 24% chance of Madeleine and Joana and others who have been abducted (numbering many hundreds if not thousands since or around that time) are alive and as has been seen in recent years, some do return home. So it is the wise and only decent thing not to give up on these children.”
Fair enough. Nothing wrong with not giving up. In fact, if she is alive she’s very fortune that her case has so much publicity and people who have ‘kept the faith’ so to speak. Because most people definitely don’t get that. So if she is found it will probably be because there is so much public awareness. And if it turns out she is not found alive, or at all, there is certainly no harm in having a Facebook page (modern face-on-a-milk-carton), a few blogs talking about leads or anything like that.
The only exception is that when a case gets so many leads it can cause a bit of confusion for LEOs when it comes to weeding out the good and bad information. For example, whenever a serial killer is reported to the public (fun fact: lots of serial killers are actually never reported to the media by law enforcement so we don’t even know they are out there) usually the police get hundreds or thousands of “tips” that just clog up the lines and that – depending on the tip – they actually have to follow up on. But then again, that’s the job of the police. So if people want to make pages, blogs, websites, etc. looking for a little girl – even if it is a long shot – for the vast aspect of it there is really no harm here.
Pam. Joana was murdered by her own mother and her uncle. They reported that she had been abducted, but later confessed to having killed her and disposed of the body. They are in prison serving long sentences. Please do not tell us you are an apologist for child killers.
June – “Pam you consistently FAIL monumentally to understand that Mr Grimes dogs have been very successful in their work in the UK Eire and USA both BEFORE and AFTER this case.”
I don’t know the man or the dogs – let’s assume, just for the sake of argument, these dogs are the best dogs in the entire world. 100% success rate. They’ve always found a body. Always located their prey. They know how to do algebra and can cook an English breakfast.
In this case – in this specific case – the dogs didn’t find anything. No one needs to discredit the dogs. There simply as no body for the dogs to find. Not even a piece of body – or even a piece of skin (which sounds morbid, but is important; when you’ve got a dead body it isn’t necessarily an entire body).
I’m always slightly skeptical of the use of dogs in certain situations (primarily civil drug enforcement) because of ‘extra’ training from their handlers (see: training drug dogs to signal on cue), or the clever Hans effect mentioned earlier. But we don’t have to assume any of those things in a case like this. Both are possible, but we don’t even need to go there. The dogs simply didn’t come up with anything. If they did, we’d have a body. But the dogs just didn’t find anything.
PM – “And you may not wish to know that Martin Grime is to be allowed to give evidence in a court in the USA –
“Grime said the dogs detect only the generic scent of human decomposition. The dogs, he said, cannot determine identity, age, race, gender or the rate of decomposition.
Grime testified in court Friday that Morse has never had a false positive response, and that testing done just prior and after the dog worked in the Jones case was successful.”
In the USA, for the most part, anyone can give evidence in court that is called as a witness. There is an extreme proliferation of ‘expert witnesses’ – many of whom are very dubious. And they always give the ‘evidence’ that supports whoever is paying them. For example, it’s not uncommon to have both the state prosecution and the defense attorney both hire psychologists.
State psychologist; “This is the most dangerous criminal I have ever seen in my 20 years of practicing forensic psychology. He is a clear psychopathy and, frankly, a terrifying individual.”
Defense psychologist; “I’ve conducted the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, as well as sought evidence of other personality disorders. He only scored a 5 on the Hare checklist out of the required 30 out of 40 points. He is not a psychopath. He definitely doesn’t have Anti-Social Personality Disorder, or any other illness. In fact, this is one of the most compassionate men I have ever spoken with, despite the serious nature of the crimes he has committed.”
(The above isn’t a hypothetical example – it’s a real one I’ve seen in sentencing hearing.)
Basically, in the USA, expert witnesses are hired guns. They lie, they lie big, they lie good – and they get paid big accordingly. So if Grimes is going to be an expert witness in the USA it isn’t exactly anything special.
In fact, if he’s for hire to testify as an expert witness in court I would say he has gone to the ‘dark side’ so to speak. That’s a dirty job with little honesty (they say what the defense/prosecution wants, depending on who is paying them). So don’t be too impressed here.
Also, it’s possible that if he claimed his dogs never had a false positive he actually perjured himself. If the dogs alerted to a dead body in the McCain case – or lets just say ‘decomposition’ – but there was absolutely no evidence of a dead body then that is, by definition, a false positive. But, as the saying goes, all is fair in love and legal wars.
I’ve just now had a chance to look at this “dogs dont lie” website. It’s pretty clear the man is a legal profiteer. And what kind of dog handler writes in the first person style of his dogs; “We’re such good doggies and we help our daddy…” Clearly psychological manipulation for his readers. Along with 20+ domain names registered to him, selling ebooks, collecting donations, etc. I think this man has probably been making a very good living with his dubious, talking dogs.
@ Reality. Regarding the 24% chance of Madeleine being alive.
It is mine any many others choice to consider she may be alive and findable which is surely the better way to look at this case as opposed to writing the child off like some here want to do? I cannot, as a mother, understand the mentality.
I see above here PM making reference to Joana Cipriano again. Well we consider there is a more than fair chance she has also been abducted by the same gang perhaps? Her mother languishes in a jail in Portugal where the Governor is even known to be unhappy with her conviction because to get a confession from a woman being tortured should hardly be admissable evidence in court. Much like the dogs alerting to something, but what. No proof of either thing.
I would never be an apologist for child killers but there are many here who believe like me that something sinister went on there.
@ Reality. Re The DOGS!!
You certainly know your stuff and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for being brave enough to face these people and tell it exactly like it is.
I am not saying Grime is a bad man but he was being paid mega bucks even back in PdL. Money does tend to talk and talk for the person paying the bucks as you said.
Pam states Mr Grime was paid mega buck a in PDL, source and link please Pam to prove u are not making thinks up LOL
Pam – “It is mine any many others choice to consider she may be alive and findable which is surely the better way to look at this case as opposed to writing the child off like some here want to do? I cannot, as a mother, understand the mentality.”
I think what is even worse is people accusing the parents as if they were responsible for some sort of abduction/murder; calling them ‘McConns,” etc. The entire legal system works on the presumption of innocence. Unless there is actual evidence to charge or convict these people – which the police don’t have – I have no idea how random people on the Internet can be so sure they are guilty. The police usually have far more evidence than they release the the public; frequently in unsolved murder cases the only evidence released to the public is done to try and get a response from the killer (thus a clue). It seems like the gossip/tabloid mentality to me to blame the McCains. And frankly I’m not sure why they aren’t suing people for libel/slander at this point, when there are entire websites accusing them of being murderers. But I understand it psychologically – people need someone to blame and it is a lot easier to blame something concrete, “two bad parents,” than to admit “we have no clue what happened to this child.”
As far as the Cipriano case I have no idea. I’d assume if she is in jail there is at least more evidence than the McCain case. But there is a bias in police work toward making arrests. It makes a department look bad and incompetent – or an entire country in an international case – if an arrest isn’t made. So it wouldn’t surprise me if the easiest route was just to arrest the parent. Someone has to get arrested.
But like I said – I have no clue about the Cipriano case so I really don’t even have an opinion one way or the other.
@Reality.
I have not been able to figure out yet why people’s IP numbers have not been tracked and those holders charged with libel/slander either. I feel perhaps more is being watched than we know as they are saying now that “facebook” is the modern day Big Brother. So those charges may yet come and I would welcome that as it will be the only thing to stop some of these cruel people from spouting their out and out lies regarding this case. So far the “twitter” prosecutions haven’t had any effect so some still have the opinion they are bullet-proof. I think their opinions are misguided and they really ought to watch what they are saying. However, if you think this bad here Reality you should see twitter on #Mccann! That goes far too far and twitter ought to take more responsibility as should facebook.
You are right to say that the general public does not hold ALL of the facts of Madeleine’s case…of course we don’t. There will be a whole lot the police have at their finger tips than joe public. And what joe public has has been interpreted from Portuguese which is a notoriously difficult language to translate. We know who some of the translators of certain files are and so enough said!!
As for Joana Cipriano, she was abducted from that same region around the same time and eventually, with lack of any other evidence it would seem her mother Leonor and her uncle were tortured into confessions. The police said the injuries were from falling downstairs…right!!! If you google the case Reality you will see what we mean. There were certain PJ officers charged with her torture and the one who lead Madeleine’s case was there in the mix and charged with perjury in covering it all up, He was given an 18 month suspended sentence. It is still ongoing with others since being charged with this and that. All available on the internet.
If Madeleine had not been abducted we should never have known and the world would be none the wiser. Scary what still goes on in this world.
June – “Pam states Mr Grime was paid mega buck a in PDL, source and link please Pam to prove u are not making thinks up LOL”
If I understand correctly, the “dogsdontlie” website is either the actual website of Grimes or done by someone working on his behalf (e.g. web designer/manager) correct?
It is also connected to about 20 other websites owned by the same person with the same hosting (obviously Grimes himself or his web guy is manging all of these websites). They don’t attempt to hide this – all of the links are right on the front page. And almost all of the websites are selling something for Grimes (including the dogsdontlie site); t-shirts, mugs, magnets, ebooks, collecting donations, etc.
Nothing ‘wrong’ with any of this. Having a bunch of websites about the same thing linked up and selling your products is just business on the ‘net. Everyone needs food and new shoes.
That’s probably just a fraction of his income though (although it does show that he is actively profit-driven).
The big clue to how much this man is actually making with his cute doggies that talk in first person and never lie (he’s a great marketer with emotional tactics, if he’s the one making these websites, by the way. “We’re such cute doggies, we never lie, we just smell good!”) is on (mccannfiles). There is a page devoted specifically to his two dogs. This is actually just an article reposted from Sky News. I won’t post a link, but you can cut and paste the quote and find it just as easily. Here goes:
“Keela is a top dog in the police world, earning more in a day than her force’s Chief Constable by working on some of the country’s highest-profile crimes.”
“Her going rate is £530 per day, plus expenses.”
“If she worked every day of the year, she would earn almost £200,000 – around £70,000 more than her force’s Chief Constable.”
So the dogs, just for hire, make an inordinate amount of money. But the man is also being used as an expert witness in the USA. In the USA, expert witnesses are either paid by the defense or prosecution. And they are paid a lot. I mean huge sums – 10-20k USD, or more. If in a lump sump. Or, some insane hourly rate like 700-1000 USD/Hour (with 20-50 work hours, depending on the case). That’s standard for expert witnesses. They make big bucks (I have some first hand experience because I dated an American forensic psychologist who did just this. Every week she was flown someplace to testify on the mental state of a person. Usually divorce cases.). He may even be making more, since we’re likely talking about homicide cases (they are dead-body-dogs, after all), rather than a custody battle. And of course, they have to pay for his flights, accommodation, villas for his talking dogs who never lie, etc.
So lets not pretend like this man is doing this at some great expense to himself, as a charity or out of the good of his heart. He’s milking it for, literally, every cent. From the “Dogs Don’t Lie” coffee mugs to the tens of thousands USD he’s making being flown around to testify as an expert witness, the man is getting rich.
I’ll tell you what – my kids aren’t going to school. They are getting two dogs and training them to smell blood and bodies. Training police dogs is the new doctor/lawyer.
As I have said many many times, if the McCanns were guilty of murdering their daughter they would have kept an exceptionally low profile when they arrived back in this country in September 2007. Instead they launched a campaign like no other, doing everything that they could to put Madeleine in the spotlight so that no one would ever forget her. These two people have gained the respect and love of millions of people, and it is that that has kept them going, together with the hope that one day they will get their little girl back.
These people who insist on trying to bring them down by making all sorts of insinuations should be hung drawn and quartered, and most probably they will be in the not too distant future. The McCanns in the meantime will never give up because they, along with the Metropolitan Police, think that she may still be alive, and who on earth would ever give up looking for their child. I would go to the ends of the earth, and as they have, learn to live with the few small, insignificant people in this world who spit venom because they can in the secrecy of their own home.
The funny thing here is, some people try to discredit the Portuguese Police AND the dog work.
The dogs were brought to Portugal by… the British Police!
If Martin Grimes plus Eddie and Keela were not accredited to do their work, as some suggested, why were they chosen by the brits? Hummm…
“reality” stated: “Also worth pointing out that for a cadaver dog to alert to a deceased body the body has to be in a state of decomposition. Not ‘rotting’ – but not simply dead. Unless we’re talking about a body that was sitting in this room, deceased for (at the absolute least) 48 hours, a cadaver dog should not signal.”
This is NOT TRUE! Either you are an ignorant guessing on this or you are simply LYING!
How long does a cadaver have to be in contact with a surface or an object for the odour to be detected? Cross-contamination is immediate.(a)
(a) As you can read here:
“http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm”
@ Reality and @ Jean.
It has been so good having your perspectives on the case which actually seem to match with my own, except you both manage to put things so much better than I.
Am very interested in Reality’s knowledgeable take on the dogs and the law and how in USA the highest payer in a court case, be that prosecution or defence gets the witness. Money certainly talks. And I agree that the dogsdontlie website is full of profiteering which is alright as a business, as you say, but not if one wants to find the truth. These people against the McCanns have the audacity to bemoan the fact the McCanns have a website where bracelets and posters can be bought or downloaded for a matter of pence. All money goes towards the fund set up to find their daughter. On the other hand they support websites whereby the money made goes into the coffers of the web owner, whoever that may be?? Double standards me thinks.
Jean: I agree wholeheartedly that the McCanns would never keep Madeleine’s profile so high if they had done something so dastardly that Madeleine died in apartment 5a. They would instead be happy to let things die down and disappear into obscurity. But no, they have fought for the right to gain answers and keep Madeleine alive in everyone’s minds in the hope we will someday be able to find her. Not the way murderers act is it? And I agree that the worst offenders in this nasty anti MccCnn world may yet have their day in court and hopefully have the book slung at them they are hardly anonymous as they can be traced through their IP numbers as paedophiles are traced these days.
Pericles: Please do not shove the mccannpjfiles down our necks any longer. We have read and are not convinced. The dogs were requested by Portugal I believe? the British police would surely have sent working dogs and not retired dogs across otherwise? We do not pull the entire Portuguese police down, just a few, and with good reason.
Most people I have knowledge of are in no way xenophobic and find Portugal a very pleasant country with lovely family friendly people, but there is an undercurrent of worry where taking children to Portugals shores is concerned. Bad history I am afraid Pericles and it is up to you people of Portugal to insist this is changed for good.
For those who try to discredit Martin Grimes, please read this piece at The Detroit News:
“http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120824/METRO01/208240420#ixzz24a3uvyi9”
Pericles – “This is NOT TRUE! Either you are an ignorant guessing on this or you are simply LYING!
How long does a cadaver have to be in contact with a surface or an object for the odour to be detected? Cross-contamination is immediate.(a)”
Lets try to discuss without any name calling – like “ignorant or “liar.” It’s just as easy to say “you’re wrong, here is why” without being rude. Funny thing is I think you and I actually agree on the most essential point – she’s probably dead. No need to be nasty.
I think you may have also misunderstood what I said, because what you wrote actually does not contradict it. A sniffer dog can pick up a scent that has simply touched an object; “cross-contamination is immediate” like you posted. I agree.
However, the scent cadaver dogs are trained to pick up on is that of a cadaver – specifically, decomposing human flesh. Lets say a person is murdered someplace and the criminal immediately moves the body (Dexter-style) – a cadaver dog wont alert to it. This is because, due to the fact that there is no decomposition (which is the scent trained for), there is nothing to alert to. There isn’t “dead body scent” that appears as soon as the soul departs the body. The dogs will only alert if the body is in a state of decomposition.
Do you know how sniffer dogs are trained? You take the desired object (drug, explosive, etc.) and basically make it a toy. In the case of training a dog to search for a narcotic – like marijuana – the actual narcotic is used to provide the scent. The trainer can stick a sock or toy in a jar with a small amount of said narcotic and then you have your training object.
Training a cadaver dog is a bit different; actual decomposing human flesh isn’t used. This would be impractical, unsanitary and probably unethical. What is used is actually a synthetic chemical that replicates the scent of decomposing human flesh. “Decomposing” is the key here. Basically what it comes down to – the body has to be in a decomposed state. A cadaver dog wont alert to a fresh corpse.
Other fact – decomposition, on average, begins in 48 hours. However, it can be increased or decreased rapidly by certain factors. Temperature as well as exposure to light are big ones. Heat and light speed decomposition. Cold slows it. There is a famous hit man/serial killer they called the “Ice Man” because he froze his victims and then dumped them at later points in time to throw off investigators. This helped him to confuse the actual time of death. Even when they realized he was doing this – and has suspicion of where to search for bodies – there were times the sniffer dogs had difficulty locating bodies because they were frozen or just recently thawed (thus not in a state of decomposition).
Just a final thought – if you want info on sniffer dogs I’d search some unrelated third party websites (maybe a police website?). Ones completely unrelated to McCann (neither pro nor con) for your info, rather than “mccannpjfiles.co.uk,” a website owned by Grimes.
I’m not saying Grimes probably has an agenda to defend his extremely lucrative business and conclusions regarding the McCann case – but he probably has an agenda to defend his extremely lucrative business and conclusions regarding the McCann case.
Pericles – “For those who try to discredit Martin Grimes, please read this piece at The Detroit News:
“http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120824/METRO01/208240420#ixzz24a3uvyi9?”
I don’t know Martin Grimes; I’ve never said anything to discredit him personally. I am sure his dogs are as good (maybe better) than any. That being said, your conclusions based on the article may be a bit misguided. Consider these two parts:
“Lane’s girlfriend, Anjali Lyons, has testified she awoke Dec. 2 to Bianca’s screams as Lane used the stick to beat the toddler for urinating in bed. Later the same morning, Lane carried a silent Bianca to his car. She was covered with an animal print blanket.”
“He [Grimes] said the dog detected a cadaver scent inside Lane’s car, on the child’s blanket and car seat, and in the girl’s bedroom and Lane’s home.”
In a preliminary hearing, you’ve got the defense and prosecution debating which evidence should be admitted – presented to judge or jury – and which evidence cannot be admitted. A judge will make a decision based on the totality of the facts and arguments they get. In this case, there is an actual witness who testified to hearing the screams of the child being beaten with a stick, as well as seeing the defendant actually move the “silent” (presumably dead) child to the car wrapped in a blanket.
So you’re not looking at a situation like with the McCaans at all. Here we’ve got a witness – a witness to the actual crime. Someone who heard the beating, saw the body, the blanket with a body (dead?) wrapped up in it, the body placed in a car, etc.
Then – only after – the body disappears. Finally, Grimes is called in and his dogs detect exactly what the witness described. So, considering that Grimes’ testimony was consistent with witness testimony, it’s a given the judge is going to declare it admissible.
Now, contrast with the McCaan case. No witnesses. No body. No physical evidence. The dogs may or may not have alerted – McCaan said yes, but even that was disputed. Assuming they did alert, there is still nothing to corroborate. It is very possible that the exact same judge would say it is inadmissible in the McCaan case.
In fact, it wouldn’t even get that far. Because you generally can’t arrest someone simply because a dog alerts. Imagine a world like that – “Well, we found no drugs in his car. No one saw any narcotics. There is no evidence of a drug deal. But the dog signaled. And dogs don’t lie. So we’ve arrested him for possession of cocaine, with intent to distribute.”
Reality, I tend to become nasty when I read posts where the Portuguese Police are called the Keystone Cops… but it was unfair to put you together with those chafs.
As for the cadaver scent, even though there is artificial odor, real cadaver parts are sometimes used (at least in the US).
You are wrong when you presume the “cadaver dogs” are searching for odor of decomposing flesh. What the dogs are trying to pick is the scent of body fluids that emanate from bodies, just minutes after death occurs.
Assuming Maddie died accidentally, by falling behind a sofa when reaching for the window, she would’ve stayed there long enough for the cadaver scent to be transferred to the floor. The dogs would pick this scent.
As for those questioning who could be so calm as to think on how to architect a fake kidnapping, I can just remember the recent Tia’s case, but let’s think for a while:
Gerry and Kate are doctors. They are used to deal with death and stress situations, daily. Gerry had political ambitions. Gerry knew is political career would be over even before it began, if he was found responsible for his daughter death. All these are facts.
Now, with this in mind, is it really so difficult to picture Gerry and Kate trying to get away with pretending Maddie had been kidnapped? No, it’s not.
As for where would they conceal the body, you surely know there where British living in Praia da Luz (apart from the Tapas 7 group). Gerry knew of those.
Wouldn’t a real friend help a desperate friend if he came up and ask?
The two bedsheets from the twins beds disappeared. Do you believe in coincidences?… I don’t.
The remains of the two children Ruth and Jose Breton, reported by their father as “abducted” in Cordoba, have been found. On a bonfire on the father’s estate. See OP page 1.
Yet another false report. (Tia, Shannon, the list is a long one)
But in fairness, what else can you say. You do not wish to spend the rest of your life in prison. It is like being found at an airport in possession of drugs. You can either admit it, or say they have been planted. There are few other options open to you. If you confess to a crime, but change your mind later, on the advice of your solicitor, what can you say ? Made a mistake is not really enough, so it has to be torture. What other option is there ?
@ Pericles Pinto. You know something Pericles, in all the time I have followed the Madeleine McCann case the only person I have ever seen refer to the Portuguese Police as Keystone Cops is YOU!!
My goodness me I am aghast at most of what you have written, and would like to pick you up on a point or two.
1) Is that I have never heard that Gerry had aspirations to be a politician other than on anti McCann forums full of myths. Where did this rumour ever start?
2) Tia Sharp’s case is completely different from Madeleine’s in that there was no faked abduction. Like Madeleine she was a missing person but sadly for Tia the truth of the matter is that she was murdered in the house next door from what we can ascertain. Madeleine remains a missing UK citizen and we want her found.
3) Gerry and Kate are doctors and used to dealing with death and stress you say. Well I guess you are right, but when there has been talk within your ranks of Kate dealing with deaths it is kind of poo pooed is it not? But I agree they are used to coping with stress and handling it in a way that you or I may not be able to. That does not make them murderers of their own child.
4) You assume they had friends from the UK in Praia da Luz who might just do them the favour of hiding their dead child? What planet are you on Pericles please? I can just imagine my reaction now if one of my neighbours happened to call by and ask if I could accomodate them by hiding their dead child. I would be on the phone to the police quicker than you could say the word “police”! Just utterly bizarre that you could even have such thoughts. Sorry but that is true Pericles.
5) the two sheets from the twins beds disappeared did they? first I have heard of it!! The twins were asleep on top of them from what I have read, so where did this little gem of yours arise? And what exactly are you trying to imply anyway? Please do not make such a fool of yourself.
As for our friend Reality’s take on the whole cadaver/body odour scenario, I think I am right in thinking this is a man from the USA, a very knowledgeable man at that, so there is absolutely no point in you trying to convince us that Reality does not know his stuff because very obviously he does.
Oh and going back to the scenario of yours regarding Madeleine falling behind the sofa, then it was blood they were looking for and not a cadaver or scent of a cadaver. And Grime himself said on video that it could be “old blood” ergo the blood of anybody. But DNA could not be ascertained anyhow. So why try laying murder at the McCanns door Pericles?
All the thousands of people supporting the McCanns online would not be doing so if we felt there was any chance that they harmed their own baby. We are not unfeeling but we are very concerned at their treatment.
@PM
Pity for those 2 innocent children but I am at a loss as to what you are trying to say with regards to Madeleine??
Pericles Pinto
August 27th, 2012 12:26 pm
The funny thing here is, some people try to discredit the Portuguese Police AND the dog work.
Reality, I tend to become nasty when I read posts where the Portuguese Police are called the Keystone Cops… but it was unfair to put you together with those CHAFS.
Hello again Pericles
First of all I should be obliged if you would let me know what a CHAF is, I have never come across this word in an Oxford English Dictionary, especially if it is an endearment?
I refer to the Portuguese Police who first entered the apartment of 5A on the night of 3 May 2007 as Keystone Kops, for the simple reason that they were. The first ones that arrived were just beat bobbies even though it had been reported that a little girl was missing. They went into the apartment smoking, dropping ash all over the place, they DID NOT seal off the apartment as the British police would have done, instead they let civilians traips all over the rooms. Eventually when Amaral’s cronies arrived, which was approximately one hour after the arrival of the first crew, they questioned and took statements and left after ONE hour saying that they would be back the next morning. They did not order road blocks, they did not alert the port, or the airport – they did nothing!! AND to top it all Amaral, who was supposed to be the man in charge, did not even arrive at all. When the incident was reported the next day they did not issue a photograph of Madeleine, it was left to her family to do that. Their spokesman actually took himself off the case because he disagreed with the way the investigation was going. There are many more reasons why I call the men in charge Keystone Kops because they completely deserved this title.
@ Reality.
Just going back over some of your exceptionally astute posts and you mentioned that Grime worked his dog fro somewhere in the region of £500 per day. Let;s not forget that is times two (x2) in his case with Eddie and Keela. A very profitable occupation indeed.
In fact I am going to get myself a couple of working dogs and get training them myself. Mega bucks here I come!!!!
Pericles – “As for the cadaver scent, even though there is artificial odor, real cadaver parts are sometimes used (at least in the US).”
Pericles – “You are wrong when you presume the “cadaver dogs” are searching for odor of decomposing flesh. What the dogs are trying to pick is the scent of body fluids that emanate from bodies, just minutes after death occurs.”
I admit could be wrong – I know that they use an artificial dead body scent, but it’s certainly possible that they could use some actual human remains in some training centers/PDs. There is no way I could prove it isn’t being done (sounds like a nasty way to do it though). All I’m familiar with is the dead body scent spray that is used. This is supposed to mimic decomposing human flesh. And I do think this is actually the most common way to do it. But there are chemical changes that occur in a body very quickly after a person passes (before decomposition takes hold). So it is theoretically possible you could train a dog to pick up on the scent of a person who died very recently.
And if this is already being done it means that there is variation in the actual sniffer dogs. If you’ve got one dog trained to pick up on some scent that results soon after death and another dog trained to pick up on the scent of decomposing flesh, then you’ve got two dogs trained to alert to different scents. Both dead body dogs, but trained to signal to different scents. Kind of like how you’ve got dogs trained to sniff out heroin and dogs trained to sniff out cocaine; but it is usually one or the other. Not just generic ‘drug dogs’ that pick up on any narcotic.
To comment further on Grimes’ dogs I’d have to know how what scent the guy trained his dog with. Otherwise at this point I’d just be guessing. I had guessed it was the synthetic dead body spray that mimics decomposing flesh. For all I know he could have used an actual human hand in a sock. Or a complex human pheromone that is emitted immediately when a person dies.
Pericles – “Assuming Maddie died accidentally, by falling behind a sofa when reaching for the window, she would’ve stayed there long enough for the cadaver scent to be transferred to the floor. The dogs would pick this scent.”
Agreed. And I thought I had written something similar earlier in fact? If you’ve got a dead body sitting under a window in Algarve for a few hours I’d wager decomposition could set in within a couple of hours (light and heat).
Pam – “Oh and going back to the scenario of yours regarding Madeleine falling behind the sofa, then it was blood they were looking for and not a cadaver or scent of a cadaver. And Grime himself said on video that it could be “old blood” ergo the blood of anybody.”
True if he was using the blood dog. He says he has a dog trained for blood and a dog trained for cadavers. And that is the big thing – even if the dogs alerted correctly the body was never found. So if it was the dog that alerted to blood, it could be any blood. And even if it was the cadaver dog maybe it alerted to a different dead body? I admit the latter is a stretch (we’d have to assume that they’re running dead bodies in and out of the place). But just the alerts without a body don’t actually tell us anything about who really died, if it was murder, an accident, who did it, etc. There just isn’t enough evidence to blame anyone – so we have to give the parents a presumption of innocence. I mean, was there even enough to make an arrest?
I’m bored of dogs and mine still pee on the floor, so I am going to change the subject. But to something still relevant:
Pam – “You assume they had friends from the UK in Praia da Luz who might just do them the favour of hiding their dead child?”
Most criminals are caught because they talk – someone tells. They tell a friend, they brag, an accomplice ‘snitches’, etc. So any time you have a crime involving multiple people it is more likely they get caught. Risk increases exponentially the more people you’ve got involved in a crime.
The McCanns have been as consistent as most witnesses (changed stories, etc, but nothing all witnesses don’t do). Now imagine we’ve got more people involved. Someone would talk and slip up. The more participants you have in a crime the faster/easier they get caught. Some criminals even just show up and admit crimes because they feel guilty (rare, but it happens, especially if they are worried about being caught or want a deal). So while I can’t assert any fact on this specific case, it does make me feel that it is unlikely the McCanns did it and even less likely that they got additional people involved to help them.
I also feel the same way about a “pedophile ring.” These exist – but an actual organized gang kidnapping children is extremely rare. The idea that you’ve got a group of people out there kidnapping children – and consistently getting away with it – is hard to swallow. Again, for the same reason. The more people you have involved in a crime the faster the criminals get caught. The viability of an organized pedophile gang kidnapping children and getting away with it for any extended period of time isn’t very good.
Now, there are definitely organized sex trafficking gangs. Mafias, if you will. Some are managed extremely efficiently. But their MO isn’t kidnapping random people; especially not high-profile foreigners from countries with strict law enforcement and high economic resources, like the UK. These are gangs who, for example, go to a small village in Romania, ‘buy’ a girl from a poor peasant family and then send them to Western Europe (Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, etc.). They take away the passport and tell them they have a ‘debt’ to repay. Then they say “Well, we can always get to your parents back in Cluj if you don’t cooperate…” They use coercion to lure and keep these women in line. The women can’t go to the police because they have no passports and are from the East (Russia, Ukraine, etc.). They are more afraid of going home, or of the police, than being prostitutes. There has even been a series of articles in the Sur talking about Nigerian gangs using the threat of Voodoo to frighten trafficked women into submission. And further – some women are even lured into it by family members; older brothers, uncles and even fathers.
Contrast to the hypothetical sex trafficking gang with a kidnapping MO. All it takes is for one victim to escape and talk. Then everyone is busted. When I read stories like, “Missing girl seen on airplane” I think to myself, “Why doesn’t she just say “these people kidnapped me.” They would be detained on the spot. And that would make the risk extremely high. Organized criminals know this and reducing risk to a minimum is part of the business. So kidnapping random children on the street isn’t exactly an MO of organized crime. That’s not a business model that you’re going to get away with for very long.
Most plausible scenario – she was kidnapped by a single individual and killed within the first few days.
A less plausible scenario – she was kidnapped by a single individual, but is alive and locked up in a basement like that man in Belgium who had a woman trapped for 20-something years.
@Pam: The first person to use the “Keystone cops” was jean on August 10th, 2012 1:58 am. If you had bothered to scroll up, you would have read her witty remark “Another error by the Keystone Kops”.
As for the missing blankets, try searching a bit more, reading a bit more…
You (and Reality) have wrote long posts full of “if this” and “if that”, which in some cases show that you have started to follow Maddie’s disappearance very recently and ignore a lot of FACTS concerning the case.
I suggest you try reading a bit in here here:
“http://themaddiecasefiles.com/”
@Jean: chav was the word I meant to write… :D
Well Pericles/D – even though you have corrected your error in spelling – this word CHAV is still not in the Oxford English Dictionary – so I presume it is slang for ‘someone who knows what they are talking about’?
As far as the FACTS of the case are concerned, the Metropolitan Police have been going through these very same facts and have come to the conclusion that THE MCCANNS ARE NOT GUILTY OF ANY MISDEMEANOUR AND THAT MADELEINE MAY STILL BE ALIVE AND CAN PROBABLY BE FOUND. Which is a lot more than you, or I, or anyone, has been able to do because we do not have access to the actual paperwork detailing the true FACTS of this case.
Sorry Pam – yes it was me that called Amaral and his gang Keystone Kops – because in my honest opinion their reactions/non-existent reactions to the events of 3 May 2007 was absolutely disgusting. If they had done their jobs properly most probably Madeleine would have been found a long, long time ago, instead of instantly finding non-existent evidence to blame the parents. That is what is normally called ‘a cop out’!!!!
@ Pericles Pinto.
I have followed this case from the very moment it was announced that Madeleine had been abducted and I don’t think there is much you can tell me about it with all due respect.
You stated 2 sheets from the twins cots were missing and this is not true. A pink blanket is “supposedly” missing but we have no idea whether or not that is actually fact. I daresay Operation Grange do now have the facts to hand over this matter.
I will not read any more of the fantasy maddiecasefiles I am afraid. I have made up my own grown up mind that there were many, many mistakes made in Praia da Luz right at the very beginning of this whole sad and tragic abduction. The Golden Hour was lost when the police in Portugal dragged their heels. I in no way imply all Portuguese police are inept, but those officers lead by Amaral were. Even Amaral says there were many, many mistakes made throughout that sorry investigation. You must know that?
I may write reams of “if this” and “if that” but it happens to be the case…there were a lots of iffy things done Pericles and it has cost this child her wonderful life with her parents, who, apart from being naive and leaving their children alone while they dined across the complex *(with regular checks in place), were the very model of perfection as parents. those children were loved and cared for and that is very obvious.
It would be good if Portugal would see her way clear to helping in the search for this child who is a citizen of the United Kingdom.
@ Jean.
I am in total agreeance with you. Too many mistakes were made or no effort at all to find Madeleine and her abductors. And I also agree too many lies and stories made up as to her parents harming her either through negligence or through murder. Where do these people get off accusing the Mccanns the way they do?
Do they think we are all as green as grass?
Pericles – “You (and Reality) have wrote long posts full of “if this” and “if that”, which in some cases show that you have started to follow Maddie’s disappearance very recently and ignore a lot of FACTS concerning the case.”
In my case – you’re correct. I have not only not been following the disappearance very recently, but I haven’t been following it at all. And even now that I’ve seen the photo enough to have the image burned into my brain, I’m still not going to start following the case unless I see her eating breakfast at a table next to mine. The actual case doesn’t really pique my interest more than any other missing person. I’m cynical and I think she is probably dead. And, if within first 24 hours we don’t have enough evidence to bring a charge then it’s probably going to stay a cold case.
That said, in my defense, 90% of what I’ve written is just about sniffer dogs in general. Some of it supports the claims of both ‘sides’ of the argument. The other 10% just relate to crime trends and statistics, legal proceedings or law enforcement (e.g. most kidnappings that are non-familiar end in death; sex trafficking gangs don’t have a kidnapping MO; expert witnesses make a lot of money; etc.). I don’t need to know much about the specific case to comment on these issues. Kind of like I don’t need to know how to grow exotic Amazonian orchids to tell someone how plants use photosynthesis.
I can’t tell you if a sheet was missing on a bed or the number of cigarette butts outside of the house. Or if you an see the back and the front at the same time. You’ll notice I’ve never commented on any of these types of ‘facts’ presented. Actually I couldn’t even identify the parents in a photo if you presented one to me.
Furthermore, I don’t have access to a case file or any actual evidence. So even if I were interested in following the case all I would have are tabloids and dubious sources to begin with. I could read a “Find McCann!” blog, but then it’s pretty obvious they are going to skew it toward her being alive. Or I could read Mr. Grimes’ 20+ websites, all of which want me to buy a “dogs don’t lie” t-shirt while at the same time saying anything necessary to keep his reputation and notoriety up. So as far real facts – we all actually have very little. You know who has the most facts here, ones they don’t even share with us? The police. Bringing us to what Jean said:
Jean – “As far as the FACTS of the case are concerned, the Metropolitan Police have been going through these very same facts and have come to the conclusion that THE MCCANNS ARE NOT GUILTY OF ANY MISDEMEANOUR AND THAT MADELEINE MAY STILL BE ALIVE AND CAN PROBABLY BE FOUND. Which is a lot more than you, or I, or anyone, has been able to do because we do not have access to the actual paperwork detailing the true FACTS of this case.”
100% correct. It’s fine to be skeptical (me). Or to have hope and think she is alive (Pam). Or to be a big meanie and assume the guilt of the parents (whomever else). But like Jean said, the only ones with the available facts (police) don’t have enough of said facts to prosecute the McCann parents.
Just to clarify on a final issue – are the police even still investigating the parents as suspects? Or have they already pretty much decided it wasn’t them?
@ Reality.
It is good to have had your take on some of the aspects of the case even if you haven’t been following it. Your points regarding the dogs alone should hopefully make the anti McCanns here think surely? I can only hope so. Those dogs are a wonderful money making commodity and as I think I might have said before, I am going to get me a couple and make me a fortune!
The case of Madeleine McCann has captured the hearts and minds of so many and until I got myself a computer 2 years ago, I had no idea how many people followed the case for better or for worse. I had followed it from day one as far as newsreels and documentaries and my husband said I would undoubtedly find more about it on the internet. Sadly, while there are many wonderful sites there is the polar to this…many nasty sites. It makes me ashamed to be a human being the way a lot of people spend all day mealy mouthing a couple they really know nothing about. Where I see pain and anguish etched across Madeleine’s mother’s face they see a hard woman. Where I see nerves they see a woman they describe as feelingless, emotionless. However the couple of times she and her husband have smiled, like when they were receiving the well wishes of locals in Praia da Luz, they were torn to shreds for that too. They cannot do right for doing wrong in these pathetic people’s small minds.
I am ever hopeful, of that you are aware Reality, and I have this deep gut instinct that Madeleine is alive and I belong to forums and groups of people who have this same feeling. As the adage goes “Hope Springs Eternal”. Would rather be feeling this way than to be bitter and twisted like some of our friends here.
So much went wrong in those first 24hrs in Portugal and sadly I and many feel this is the reason Madeleine was able to be taken away from the area and probably the country without any trouble whatsoever. So very sad! A darling little girl who must have been terrified when she realised she was no longer in the family fold but with complete strangers. Can only pray she is being treated well IF she is still alive.
Hi Reality – The British police have dismissed the fact completely that the McCanns had any part in the disappearance of Madeleine.
They were made ‘arguidos’ for a time in Portugal, which means that they were suspected of a crime. Along with this status they were allowed to refuse to answer any questions, and have a lawyer present. During questioning Kate was told that if she confessed to killing her daughter she would be guaranteed a lenient sentence of 2 years, and her husband would be allowed to go home with their two other children. Very shortly after this happened they returned home to England, which speaks volumes to me. If the Portugese police had had any evidence whatsoever which they could have used to find them guilty, no way on this earth would they have let them out of the country. Together with the fact that they tried to blackmail her into saying she was guilty of heinous crime.
Who we now refer to the ‘anti-McCanns’ are still of the opinion that no matter what they are guilty of, either killing their daughter with an overdose of some sort of drug, because they are both doctors, or finding her dead in the apartment after a fall of some sort, and because they feared for their reputation they staged this elaborate story that she had been abducted. It has also been suggested that they hid her in a freezer until the coast was clear and then buried her either in a sand dune or took her 28 days later to another village in a hire car. Not taking into account that by that time the smell of the corpse would be noticed by all the worlds media, which had gathered on the day after Madeleine disappeared. All of which makes me believe that the people who make up these stories ought to stop watching the television late at night because it is affecting their brain!
Together with the fact that – according to the anti-McCanns, they enlisted the help of the seven friends they were on holiday with. As you have stated previously, the more people who are involved in a crime, the more chance there is that one of them will slip up and tell the truth. Which to date, five and a half years on, has not happened!!
Linking this article showing that the families of missing children never give up hope. Even 50 years down the line they want answers:-
“http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/new-reward-money-offered-in-missouri-girl-s-abduction/article_0e314c02-f1e8-11e1-9309-001a4bcf6878.html”
@jean: “Metropolitan Police have been going through these very same facts and have come to the conclusion that THE MCCANNS ARE NOT GUILTY OF ANY MISDEMEANOUR”
Actually, the Portuguese Police could have charged the McCanns with misdemeanour: leaving children unattended is, by itself, enough for that, under the Portuguese law.
And that, I assure you, would have happened if the the missing child was from a Portuguese couple and they had no “connections”.
Clearly not the case of the McCaans… and that’s the ONLY reason they got away with no accusation for misdemeanour by the Ministério Público.