SPANISH house prices could drop by a further 50% and may not recover for the next 15 years, according to experts.

The Costa del Sol is among the worst affected areas in the country, with the total fall in values predicted to be as much as 75% in some areas.

There are 800,000 used homes on the Spanish property market, with another 300,000 having been foreclosed by the banks and a further 150,000 in foreclosure proceedings.

What’s more, developers have 700,000 completed units not on the market and another 250,000 still under construction.

“The market is broken,” said Fernando Rodriguez de Acuna, vice-president of Spanish economic consultancy RR de Acuna & Asociados.

“In places like Castellon, near Valencia, where over-development was mad, banks are not financing anything and there is a high probability these properties will never be sold. They will have to be knocked down.

“Banks are offering huge discounts and nobody is calling. Marbella has already fallen by 50% and prices are going down and down.”

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350 COMMENTS

  2. If we’re talking costas with it’s great all year round climate, more people will start buying at some stage if prices go lower. With all this negative DOOM talk, people forget that the weather won’t change. It’s the main reason most people live there. It will pick up. And while this doom talk is all going on, people are living on the costas enjoying themselves, walking around slowly smiling, going to markets…
    Just feel sorry for anyone involved in financial trouble, and hope they can manage to stay in Spain!

  5. The Spanish Housing Market was never anything more than a myth, there was never a real demand for property it was brought about by foreign…mainly English and Irish buyers… cashing in on the ludicrously high valuations on their home properties and then re-mortgaging them to buy 2nd homes…..most of whom could not possibly afford them. This was a financial disaster waiting to happen, and happen it did!Property is only a good investment when it’s primarily built for the indiginous population, i.e. London. Consequently when the foreigners stopped buying there were no other buyers to take their place. Typically, the Spanish banks over extended themselves…due to stupidity and greed( not forgetting a certain amount of “graft” and huge back-handers from those to whom they lent the money)as they have done in the past…and given half a chance would do in the future…..thus helping to create the collapse of this “house of cards” situation. Their housing market was never really there in the past, and it stands no chance of any form of recovery, not in this lifetime or the next. I’m extremely sorry for those individuals who thought that it was a good idea to have a 2nd home in the sun and wound up losing a lot of money but it was a stupid thing to do for most of them, but hopefully they’ll recover from their losses and not make the same mistakes in the future.

  6. I take no pleasure in saying the chickens are coming home to roost for the over development. till a Spaniard in my village is still trying to sell an unfinished house for 300,000 euros, such optimism should be applauded.

  8. The market is broken because it is selling a faulty product – fix the laws and systems. Stefano is 100% correct. Fix the systems, make title deeds 100% guarantee then you have a good product. Appoint an independent regulator to monitor real estate agents, zoning laws and lawyers that should assist with cleaning up minor corruption. Low prices in real estate will attract foreign buyers and slowly fix the over supply of real estate and possibly give more jobs to the locals. There are currently 20 million Spaniards that live and work abroad – forgotten market!!!!
    The other issue Spain has to fix asap is the banking sector – cancer.

    I believe Spain does have a product to sell however not in its faulty state.

  9. What a load of nonsense ! I have been involved in Marbella real estate for 20 years and I agree prices have dropped in some areas but to quote 50% falls and more to come is just scare mongoring. I have been gazumped twice in the last month on bank repossions which proves there are buyers out there and taylor wimpey have sold over 25 apartments in for months on their new development in San Pedro,so it’s not all doom and gloom in Marbella, added to this there have been many sales in la zagaleta which proves the higher end is still buoyant .

  11. Common Sense – I wouldn’t brag about being in real estate for 20 years as that means that you have been part of the problem and it seems continue to be.

    The properties that are now heavily discounted were never worth what you and others were selling them for to gullible expats and no doubt Spaniards from up North. Sure you enjoyed all that commission while the going/conning was good.

    Nobody in their right minds will buy now in Spain unless they are first-timers, are downsizing or want to live here full time.

    What is needed is a widespread bulldozing of all the estates not occupied and serious discounting like suggested in the article to at least get rid of the empty properties. Then maybe in 10 years time things might be ok for the odd construcion project.

  13. Has “Common Sense” never heard the saying “One swallow does not a Summer make”? when he/she talks of being guzumped twice in a month. There are an estimated 1.6 million properties for sale and even though the prices are in free fall they will never be sold. I believe the current expression is “get your head out of your a**e” there is going to be no property recovery since the “South Sea Bubble” that was the last “boom” has burst and is never coming back. Just have a look at how many people are now just walking away from their homes and going back to their various places of birth just so that they can dump their ridiculously high mortgage. Much as I love living in Spain I realise that the only thing that it really has going for it is the weather, I feel that their main problem is that after joining the ridiculous Euro their prices for everything escalated out of control so they lost their tourist industry. Lest we forget, this particular industry was the bread and butter of Spain and until they exit from the Euro, slash all their prices by 75% and get the tourists back they will never recover anything. Spain is not Germany and they cannot possibly be in the same monetary union, get out and get back to how it used to be.

  14. Maybe propertys on the coast will have a realistic value now, greedy people will of course be stuck with negative equity.
    Spain always used to be affordable as a second home country and then went mad so now its bitten them on the bum.

    Good days will happen again , and I will come back to spain as I hate it in the uk. I miss spain so much warts and all.

    complacent spanish are now to have a reality check.

  15. I know we shouldn’t believe a single word estate agents say, but hopefully houses will have a more realistic value now. Down half again though? If that’s not DOOM talk I don’t know what is… and is this helpful?! I’d like to hear more estate agents views to this article on here please.

  18. Roger – what Stefanjo is trying to say is that anything you hear from estate agents will not be better, good or bad stories – they will be just stories. They never have and never will tell the truth, especially now. Get an estate agent to admit the market is all but dead would be like Suarez admitting he dives!

    If you want stories about how the situation is ok then read the Sur in English online which obviously has a lot of advertising revenue from agents and leave this publication to print the truth.

  20. “If you want stories about how the situation is ok then read the Sur in English online read the Sur in English…”

    Excellent point Ian makes. Honestly, if you wanted a total fabrication of the property market in Spain, read the Sur In English. Its publications on property and living in the Sun rarely even make mention of the issues affecting Spain, such as illegal builds, land grabs, houses that cannot get electricity, houses that are in legal limbo, the list is endless – and yet none of these problems exist in Sur’s property supplementals. A work of total fiction.

  21. I couldn’t believe the Suarez thing Roger….talk about timing!

    I don’t mean to be negative but the truth is there are no positives in the Spanish property market and won’t be until drastic measures are taken. Mind you the country as a whole probably has more to deal with before it tackles that but my gut feeling is that if you can get the property market stimulated by some serious reductions in prices then at least there would be a temporary boost and influx probably of capital from outside Spain.

  22. The problem with us British we were brought up to think profit when we bought a house, if we did not make £50thou on the house we were heart broken. We forgot it was a place to live. There is no money to be made in houses in UK. So if you are happy were you are and do not need to move stay. Think of it this way.You bought 10-15 years ago, if I were to move and only got the money you paid for it. you would saved 10-15 years rent. Sadly there will be people who come unstuck and there will be people who made thousands, but that is life. I think the way ahead now (if you need a UK fix) is to lease your house for 3 month to a year, take your time to find the right people. I am to old now to sell and move, but when I need a Spanish fix I am going to drive down and lease for 3 months. For every crook you have we have 3. Do not listen or read these bringers of doom. enjoy what you have. Just think you could be 20 and think of what they will have to put up with. Work till 70 and pension will be a thing of the past. More drink I say

  24. just copying and pasting some stats for a region – Personally I’m not surprised people want to live round that coastal area!:

    ‘Figures released this week by the National Statistics Institute (INE) show that 1,023 homes were sold in Alicante Province in November 2012, a rise of 21.2% over the corresponding period for 2011.

    INE says that this was the fourth month in a row that sales have increased in the province while on a national level they have fallen.

    Over the four month period between August and November sales increased by 10.1%, 5.22%, 17.87% and 21.2% consecutively.’

  25. Home purchasing, building and renovating is one of the biggest expenses a homeowner will ever make. It is therefore crucially important for the home building industry and real estate industry to function effectively. In Spain, current systems and legislations are not ensuring that consumers are appropriately protected and industry can function efficiently hence the dramatic drop of real estate prices. It is obvious, that the Spanish Government has not acknowledged any comprehensive examination of the legislations and systems needed to take place, and that further reforms are necessary in order to properly address the full range of issues raised by the industry, homeowners and other stakeholders. There has not been a genuine effort by the Spanish Government to fix and deliver a seamless national economy in real estate. In addition jurisdictions have taken the same attitude re Prior case. This sector has in the past been a major player in the economy providing jobs and a strong contributor to the local economies. Given the extent of this activity, it is clear that this market must be activated and still plays a role in the Spanish Economy.

    This article has had a special purpose. It has generated discussion on the current issues affecting a broken market and the need for change and possible public proposals for reform. The Spanish government should seek comments on the issued raised and as well as more general comments on the operations of the current real estate broken framework

  27. Roger – Figures released this week by the National Statistics Institute (INE) show that 1,023 homes were sold in Alicante Province in November 2012, a rise of 21.2% over the corresponding period for 2011.

    ONLY ANOTHER 1 MILLION TO GO.

  28. Fred – Australian market had proven itself to be one of the most resilient housing markets in the world because Australia had some of the most stringent banking controls in the world. Australia also has one of the most resilient title deed systems in the world too.

    “http://smh.domain.com.au/real-estate-news/economist-tears-roof-off-affordability-study-20130121-2d2e4.html”

    “http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf”

    So why can’t Spain do the same to fix its economy by copying some of the stringent Australian banking and real estate controls? The global financial crisis has had little to no impact on Australia’s economy.

  30. Stanza seems to miss out the fact that Australia performs a protectionist state whereby it will not allow free trade from other countries, as a result the cost of living and property prices are through the roof. If you want to live miles away from anywhere then off you go.
    The challenge in Spain is simply overdevelopment by small minded greedy bankers, builders and local authorities, supported by Brits who felt they were getting the deal of a lifetime. The message of “If it looks too good of a deal it most probably is” apples to all those people who have been shouting loudest of how smart they have been buying on a rising property market in Spain, most people simply sat back and waited for the bubble to burst.
    Property will continue to sell where the investment is a life style decision the challenge will be at what level the volumes will level off at.

  31. Let us not forget the huge Black Money that also fuelled the boom….. People scrambled to pay cash…clean the money by buying real estate…..and they cared little what they paid….so a boom happened..price rose and people got greedy… Result is…NOW

  32. It’s a great time to buy NOW! Rock bottom prices, unfortunately bank repossessions, and hence many different continents loving moving to Spain for the nice climate! Stop moaning everyone and buy these ridiculously priced ‘places in the sun’. Just off for a cerveza!

  34. I would like to buy a house in Marbella but will at least wait 1 to 2 year because it still have to drop 50 percent more before it will be normal prices as it should be with so much houses and apartments thats empty,,in the end banks will just push them out for whatever price just to get rid of them.

  35. no fred… but a lot of people have made the move and are living (some laughing) in the sun, as people talk it all down.. maybe keep looking out the window, dreaming of a better, healthier, sunnier life… Well that life is just around the corner! Buy today at great affordable prices! A once in a lifetime offer! Prices slashed! Bank repossessions! and much much more!

  36. Roger, yes a good lifstyle choice but investment no.At the lower end of the market, there are poeple trying to rent their apartments out for 200 to 300 euros per month long term. Holiday rentals are almost dead – look at the availability on owners direct. Take your maintenance costs, mortgage costs etc and the annual bill will run to thousands so when the market has recovered in 10 years the property would have needed to increase to cover the running costs, plus what you could have made if you have rented a property out in a Country where the market is not awash with empty units. My two properties in Spain cost me about £6k a year to run, i.e. I am down £6k per year even after a few lettings and one is mortgage free and the other has 12 months to go. In the UK, you spend £200k on a house and you will receive cira £8k rent, in Spain it is laughable. Owning a property in Spain as a second home is the same as running a Rolls Royce or a static caravan in the UK!

  37. Yes Ivar – wait another 2 years and you will most likely be able to buy at demolition prices. Remember too that it’s not always Location Location Location here in Spain – for some property owners that has transpired to mean Demolition Demolition Demolition, therefore, if you buy at demolition prices then possibly you won’t mind so much if the Junta reduce your property to rubble one day.

    Take a look also at what has happened in the UK in high unemployment areas, there you can buy a property for £1. The 1€ property will come to Spain too and when it does, I will laugh my head off at what the authorities have done to the property market here in ‘sunny’ Spain; with their wranglings over the so-called ‘illegal’ homes scandal and threatening innocent property owners with demolition. Don’t forget Len and Helen Prior, their home did get demolished.

    So much bad press here that prospective buyers lack confidence in the spanish property market and a ‘fall by a further 50%’ of current valuations becomes somewhat ambitious.

  38. Come on ladies and gents this is so laughable to read all of your comments and the naivety that you represent as so called intelligent people, you are all so indoctrinated by what you hear is beyond belief. Let us add a little more comfort to those living in Spain and introduce a bedroom tax on the unemployed living in a property that has a spare bedroom? That should be good Yes.
    Let us give the bankers and politicians an increase in bonuses as they work so hard and will appreciate our understanding, as you know all of the UK politicians, Spain etc. are millionaires but need that little extra for all the hard work that they do, we have to keep them happy.
    Demolish a few Brit properties in Spain not a problem as they can always come back home and find a bed sit where they can retire or should I say vegetate too and hopefully die a little early and save our government from paying benefit? That is good Yes.
    Let us not forget about the kids who have to return back to the UK or wherever and suffer the indignity and try to explain why mum and dad who made a mistake in their lives and had to return to their place of origin.
    I have never seen one bloody comment by anyone expressing their concern for the children, all you hear is adult complaints and am sick of it, YUP.
    Most people try to improve their lives and yes there is a little greed in all of us but there are those who take it to the extreme which is sad but is a fact of life.
    If there was more attention placed upon the welfare of the children am sure we would all be a little more careful in what we do and try to plan with a more dignified attitude.
    Bankers have loaned money to a prospective purchaser and happy to receive the interest on the property that they have purchased but when the bank cocks up and gets bailed out they still want their cake and eat it, SOD OFF
    You people living in Spain are better off where you are not in the UK believe me, DO NOT COME BACK

  40. My partner and I had considered retiring to Spain. we have decided not to pursue it further for the following reasons.
    1. Spain is now the fourth highest taxed in the Eurozone, on average with income tax and local taxes averages around 52%!
    Compare with France which is around 41%.
    2. Buyers do not feel confident in buying property in Spain, mainly because of bad publicity emerging from the area re crooked lawyers/estate agents, and illegal construction.
    3. The economy of Spain is almost certainly (if it remains within the Euro) to follow Cyprus and Greece.
    4. High unemployment which is projected to go higher along with most other Euro countries, this will lead to statistically higher crime rates.
    5. Huge over capacity of properties, estate agents can talk it up all they want, but, popular consensus is for further falls in the market by perhaps 50%!
    6. Unrealistic property prices, vendors attempting to sell at 2007 prices, I am reliably informed by Spanish estate agents that most properties advertised in the region of 250000 Euro sell for approx 50000 Euro less.
    7. The main purchases of property in Spain were British and Irish, it may have escaped many of your contributors attention that the English economy is almost as bad as Spain!
    8. High unemployment equates to low property values.
    9. The UK is seeing fundamental changes in property values with exceptions in some areas (London). Lower wages, bank reluctance to lend on overvalued property, echoes of Spain.
    10. The Spanish market with not recover until some of these issues are corrected, my guess is that it may be around 15 to 20 years at best.
    11. I am sorry for the expats who are trapped there, hoping for a better life, but, my advice would be to get out now whilst you can salvage something. What happened in Cyprus may well happen there, the Eurocrats and Germans have got away with it, and will do it again, rest assured.
    12. Warm weather is not everything!

  41. Man im soooooo happy the greed destroyed the greedy , I Went to Spain 7 1/2 years ago with my family , Sold my 4 bedroom house with extra garden flat & double workshops in South Africa to someone that needed my property to get Hotel rights , and knowing that i still willingly with good concience sold for way less than some greedy estate agent with only status of their own in mind said i could get , why because i knew that some day would come and i would be embarressed to complain about the greed that make man & woman kind monsters , and wouldent want to be part of that. Arrived in Spain changed my Currency for Euros and could not even buy a 1 bedroom appartment that was a piece of sh1 -t .True the euro is way stronger than the Rand but i calculated matterial costs & and all builders rates in

  42. Man im soooooo happy the greed destroyed the greedy , I Went to Spain 7 1/2 years ago with my family , Sold my 4 bedroom house with extra garden flat & double workshops in South Africa to someone that needed my property to get Hotel rights , and knowing that! i still willingly with good concience sold for way less than some greedy estate agent with only status of their own in mind said i could get , why because i knew that some day would come and i would be embarressed to complain about the greed that make man & woman kind monsters , and wouldent want to be part of that. Arrived in Spain changed my Currency for Euros and could not even buy a 1 bedroom appartment that was a piece of sh1 -t .True the euro is way stronger than the Rand but i calculated matterial costs & and all builders rates in South Africa and could not believe the more than 500% price hike .
    When i saw that i told my Wife & friends that this will have to fall appart soon or there is something misserebly wrong with the society we live in that no one wants to see the future outcome of this , yet they said man your always seeing the negative .
    Being a plumber I see myself as a realist knowing that poeple have more dirt than they pretend to have i always look between the lines with more insight than most intelectuals and just have not learnt how to lie to myself.
    My Prediction against all positive poeple 7 years ago was that the propety prices will have to drop a 70% before it makes any sense and if estate agents will be less greedy they will tell their clients its better to be sane as this will only lead to more insanity , enough said i left Spain 3 YEARS AFTER RENTING IN A SMALL REASONABLY INSANE PRICED TOWN BACK TO SOUTH AFRICA WITH A BITTER TASTE IN MY MOUTH WITH A KNOWLEDGE OF THINGS TTO COME AND YES IT DID , I WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK BUT SEE THAT VERRY LITTLE HAS CHANGED AND ESTATE AGENTS STILL DELLUSIONED BECAUSE OF GREED.
    GOOD LUCK FINDING MORE EMBECILES.

  43. The problem in Spain is the same as uk.Run by criminal bankers and politicians and the law is made by politicians and should be smashed by the fists of the people who are facing the results of these Hitlerite lovers of money without any principles.When the people have a leader they will turn against these criminals with brutal force. And everyone should contribute to what they consume,food housing clothinf,medical care under doctors and not hitlerite bureaucracy who will be thrown out and be forced to work in production only and double the GDP of the country and supermarkets will be forced to buy in uk to create employment. Any attempt by the liars to stand in the way of progress will be punished only by physical means.

  46. Yes the tonic of time. Property prices are highly correlated to successful economies and I can’t see one of those on the horizon. Ok Germany is still selling a lot of sour kraut but they like to buy in enclaves not roast beef resorts. The last bad property crash in the uk was 1990, it took 5years before prices stabilised, this in an economy inherently stronger than Spain’s. With the glut of properties plus the poor,if not dire, Spanish economic outlook I can’t see a pick up for a long long time. My caveat being a total crash to levels below net cost to build new as outlined by Bellod, in these circumstances there will be a quick turnaround as in the States. Even so this tonic will have many choking on their all day breakfasts.

  47. Hi,
    I’m one of those poor souls trapped in the confusion of thinking of still moving to the Andalucia or Granada regions….
    Some of what is written scares the hell out of me!!!….but I also think the time for making profit on property is long gone ANYWHERE!

    My question is this…as first time buyers of property in Spain, we plan to live there, but I want to continue to work in the UK for a few more years. How can we avoid the pitfalls?… And if we look at a property, say valued at €300,000, what offer do we make??….do we offer €200k?..or less!!! Where do we get a realistic independent accurate value of what we’re buying??

  48. Avoid the pitfalls ? here are my suggestions.
    1.Spend time in the area and not just one week or two ,get a good feel for the area .
    2. choose an area of mixed nationalities – english enclaves just attract problems
    3. learn the language or at least make an effort to do so
    4. buy a house over ten years old , preferably one that has been owned by a german ( you will hate the decor but its guaranteed to be legal – so fussy them germans )
    5. choose and agent with an API number
    6. P

  49. Steve,
    there have been so many articles about the truly bad building practices in Spain – why are still intent on buying one of these.

    First look online at best building practices. Check also areas that you would be stupid to buy in – at the bottom of mountains that have been deforested, landslides with heavy rain / or that are prone to brush fires, which have been common for hundreds of years in many areas of Andalucia.

    You want to live in the Granada area – check out “www.xella.com”, they have a depot in Granada, see if they sell the aercrete flooring and roofing beams as well as the blocks then you will have a fireproof and properly insulated house very important in the Granada area which has very hot summers and very cold winters. PV and solar heated hot water are completely viable in that area – do not have anything installed by Spanish ‘builders’ or cowboy English builders – look for local German builders, they will be able to produce German dimplomas.

    You will be able to build a very good quality home for way less than €200,000. Right now land with proper building consents can be bought for a song as the market will take an awful long time to recover.

    Do not believe what mayors/lawyers tell you – you need to personally check with the Junta – if you do not, you deserve all that will undoubtedly happen to you sooner or later.

    Yes Granada province has some awesome landscapes especially between Granada and Guadix,just don’t let this blind you to proper research and check and double check everything.

    Or you can buy a cheap crap built property that has the ‘appearance’ of looking nice.

    Do not look to buy into a ‘dream’ you will wake up to a very real nightmare but this applies to buying/building a home anywhere – reality, first and last.

  50. Thanks for the replies :)

    As someone who is considering buying in Andalucia I’m finding all the very negative attitudes to the idea a bit daunting!
    I can see that you have to have your wits about you in buying any property, anywhere, and that the apparent unregulated practices in the Spanish housing/legal professions even more reason to be cautious.

    But surely there are reputable agents, there are reputable, honest, and thorough solicitors??? Surely???

    Many Brits have already bought properties, many have obviously made mistakes, but the process is possible surely? What I’m after is a bit of guidance towards a reputable agent, and honest solicitor.

    I’m beginning to wonder if there isn’t a lot of aggressive attitude connected to the Spanish housing market from owners who have lost hundreds of thousands of pounds in the market crash, and are understandably annoyed with their experiences. Marry that with the obvious unsteady climate, with possible/probable future price drops, I can understand their anxiety…or is that me just being green as grass in the matter???

    We’re hoping to settle in the Inland Malaga, or Costa Tropical areas, and have decided to either rent a house for 6 months if possible, or vist for long weekends 1-2 times a month staying in hotels in different areas. That way we’ll have a chance to get a feel for different areas, and narrow our searches, and have a chance to view some properties.

    I’m not too perturbed that moving to Andalucia would be a mistake…I’m sure it wouldn’t. I’m going to semi-retire, my partner to become a lady of leisure :) the climate and culture would suit us I’m sure. It’s the house buying and legal side that concerns me….

    Steve

  51. It’s definitely not that bad Steve. Just a few of the usual miserable imps on here above who’ve been stung probably.

    Go for it! Holiday over by the area you’re interested in though and talk to locals as much as you can to recommend estate agents etc. Ask them what their problems were. Some had problems, some had none. Granada area is great, as is the city itself!!! Stay at the coast then stay high up inland to experience the different climates. So much at the coast in Andalucia these days, and yes cheeky offers always. Unfortunately I’d investigate bank repossessions too. ASK ASK ASK and don’t be scared off the place by any comments on here.

    A ‘very real nightmare’ for me would be being forced to move back to Grey Britain!

  52. A lot of the anger on here Steve is just because it’s a forum – people acting up on computers (imps). Face to face most people on here would seem a lot more appeasing probably.

    Fantastic areas you’re thinking of!

  53. Thanks for that :)

    We’re going to see about a weeks break out there soon if possible.

    I don’t know anyone over there, but I do know of someone who lives there, who I could maybe ask? Though I don’t know them very well at all.

    Why do say ‘unfortunately’ you’d investigate bank repossessions?….I thought that’s the greatest chance of a bargain?
    Although getting well ahead of myself here….what would be an acceptable guideline for an offer on the asking price?…10%,20%,30%…more?!? I know each property is different, but I’m trying to gauge what prices we can look at that would relate to an actual sale price. For instance I’ve read that they’re after €300,000 for some property, but will never get it, so therefore the selling price is lower..maybe much lower!! Are we talking €200,000 in those circumstances, or is that way off the mark.

    Thanks, Steve

  54. Steve,
    You have a great plan i.e renting first and moving around to find your ideal location.
    You are in a brilliant position with time on your side, there is no need to rush. What’s that saying, ‘Purchase in haste and repent at leisure’ or is that about marriage? Maybe that boat has sailed but don’t rush into Spanish home purchase when you can buy today and buy cheaper tomorrow. If you really are tempted offer at least 30% below asking price and move up the offer as necessary but definitely be prepared to play hard ball. Keen to buy myself but I’ll follow your lead. Keep us updated on your search. Good luck.

  55. Hi Steve – just meant the unfortunate situation people face with repossessions these days.. but while it’s going on there’s some bargains out there lately. Look around and good luck! Don’t spend years looking though – Those years could be spent living in Spain. Use estate agents as much as you can to take you around places. I think the too high amount of 5% is the going rate in Spain. Make sure they don’t charge 8-9-10%+ as some try to do! If they’re reputable they should take care of the whole sale properly and do any translating needed. You have to trust some people sometimes. Locals should tell you who’s dodgy and who’s not. I think you’re right with the prices too. Also avoid anywhere on a half built coastal estate where cranes are stood idle close by.

  57. Thanks for all that, some great advice in those replies, and I’ve been greatly encouraged by them.
    We’re sure that the move would be great for us, and although sensibly nervous, are getting excited about the prospect of living there.
    We’re very open to areas, although feel those areas that we’ve picked seem right for us.
    The help on price guides was great. It’s a minefield just knowing what price the properties should be that we’re looking at (allowing for offers). We’re certain of the maximum we’re prepared to go to as a purchase price, but realise that the houses we could be looking at could be vastly outside that budget.
    I guess we’ve made the first step, because we’re pretty sure we want to move to Andalucia. The next steps are daunting, but with some help we’ll get there :)

  60. Latest news on Spain’s current housing stock for sale is that it has grown from 2 million to 2.25 million (a jump of 12.5%) according to RR de Acuna and Associates based in Madrid.

    So, Common Sense and Roger, many property prices have fallen 50% because they were over-valued in the 1st place, they are predicted to fall further, and, another quarter of a million on the market will put further downward pressure on prices as will the bad bank Sareb when it starts off-loading it’s 1000’s.

    Talk it up if you will but you can’t hide the statistics.

    Let’s hope the Eurozone doesn’t break-up too meanwhile, so the wise guys and gals do not keep their money in Spain, other than day to day living money, they’re sending it to Germany and other safer countries.

    Sorry to be gloomy, but newcomers need to know the truth which agents won’t tell you.

  61. Paul,
    you are telling the truth which means that you will be attacked by all those with a vested interest in selling/letting.

    I looked at Steve’s replies – he is refusing to let go of ‘the dream’. The banks will not tell you that they are trying to offload illegal properties.

    All those commenting about Spanish property who have zero experience in construction or who have cowboyed/bodged work on an old property – I know I have laughed at what I have seen.

    There is nothing like Building Regs. Part 2 in Spain.

    The idiots who rec. living behind the Snowy mountains without mentioning that the climate is totally different from the Med coast – we loved the cold dry winters but the summers were a impossible for those who love an outdoor life.

    If it was possible to buy legitimate land to build it is the Alpujarras or the Lugros Canyon, simply because altitude means far less heat in summer. I would build using the right materials and PV for electricity and solar panels for hot water with a wood burning stove for back-up in winter and of course for cooking.

    There is a unique hotel in the foothills above Guadix – the Patio de Lugros run by Rafael and Eva his German wife. It is reached via a canyon drive that you would think was somewhere in northern Europe and is simply fantastic.

    It was one of only 3 alternative energy hotels in Europe and is a wonderful base to explore the Comarca de Guadix and the Alpujarras can be reached by a road about 30K away. google for all info and booking – I have no financial interest in this hotel but can vouch for comfort, location and blissful silence that a stay there provides.

    As to Granada it is probably my favourite city anywhere but that is because I have friends who know what the craic is – as my friend Enrique said “in Granada everything is possible”. Maybe this year we will get to visit but not before late autumn – forget the summer it will slaughter you with heat.

    The negative which applies to anywhere in Spain is the dysfunctional economy, they are so far behind that they will never catch up now. The health system is very good but now has no money – never under estimate the importance of this as you get older.

  62. Thanks for all the replies.

    I’m not blinded by ‘the dream’ I don’t think? We’re just starting the first steps that will hopefully make it a reality, or resign it as just a dream.
    The first steps include finding out as much information, opinion, and advice, as you can, good or bad.

    The first impression is that we need to be cautious. We’ve decided if, and I think it’s more a when, we move out to Spain we’re going to rent for a year, and rent out our property in the UK. That rental income should cover the costs both here and there. That way we find out if it’s for us, if the heat is too unbearable, or anything else that may alter our opinion of living abroad.

    It’s not like we’re going into this blindly. We’re aware of the obvious troubles spain is in, and the obvious implications that might arise from that.
    The thing is, unless somebody says DO NOT BUY IN SPAIN then the opportunity to do so is still there. Am I to believe that 100% of house purchases in Spain are on illegal houses, or part of a widespread corruption to offload worthless property???? I can’t believe that is so! A percentage maybe, a large percentage maybe, but I can’t believe it is just ‘a racket!!’ If it was, and I may be being green here, the EU would have to step in under illegal trading laws???

    If you buy in Spain without taking precautions I can imagine that you are heading for a fall!

    As regards house prices…..if I’m looking at a property, at let’s say €2000,000, I would not offer that. I would offer at least 20-35% less than that, maybe more. This would then negate any future drops slightly. Also remember that the purchase wouldn’t be for another 12-18 months, when our rental period would be over, so it would also be judged on what will then be ‘the future drop’ that is before us now.
    The other point to note, is that I’m buying to retire, it’s not a holiday home, and it’s not an investment. If after a year we still love it there then we will probably not be returning, and thus not ever sell the property we buy. So therefore the value would not become an issue. More of an issue to us would be social degradation…and to be honest that’s a problem in the UK too!!! But so long as we were happy, then we would be ok.
    You’d have to remember that we’d have bought a very cheap property in a years time (most probably!), certainly compared to the UK, so if a cheap property drops in value it is not such an issue. Again, the standard of our life would be far more important. That wasn’t the case in the boom, or prior to the illegal property situation, where people were investing a lot of money to find out that it was not worth anything like it, and even what it was worth couldn’t be obtained cos you couldn’t sell it! If I was in that situation I’d be aggrieved myself!! We however, are going to be buying when prices are low, very low…maybe in a years time ridiculously low! So the risk on that front is hugely lower.

    We’re not going into this blind, or without thinking it through. We realise we’ve only just started the journey, and have a LOT to learn! But I can only try to get as much information, honest information, as I can. I need to find respectable, honest agents and solicitors, and I’m sure there must be some???!?!? Like I’ve said, in about 12-18 months after renting I’m sure we will be a lot wiser in many areas! But during these first steps I’ve heard from as many who have made the situation work for them, as I have from people who haven’t…..I just need to do lots of research so that hopefully I can become of the ones that do make it work.

  63. Stuart, the ‘big-up Spanish property contingent’ do not bother me in the slightest, I’ve got broad shoulders, I fully expect them to go on the attack. To see it from their blinkered point of view is that their incomes depend on it, and many (not all) will carry on duping any naive Brit, or potential purchaser that ‘now is the time to buy’, with the dire exchange rate for Brits and huge rising over-supply of properties prices are predicted to fall further.

    Not forgetting, what other assets are people expected to pay an 11% transaction cost for buying and more like 5-6% for selling? You have to make 20% increase just to break even, if you need to re-sell, madness!!

  65. Steve, sounds like you are on the right track. It could be a good lifestyle choice and as long as you make sure the property you are buying is fully legal with the Junta then you should be OK. You can make any offer you like but you should get an idea of what is a good deal or not by looking around. If someone offered me 30% less I would not deal with you anymore as I would not overprice by 30% in the first place, but of course some agents add 30% on for themselves. You will know what is the correct price when you start looking.

  66. Steve,

    You are quite correct in trying to find good straight professionals. I suggest you start looking for an International Lawyer based in this country with a Partner based in Spain. Don’t use a local Spanish based lawyer for obvious potential vested interests, conflicts etc. If you use a lawyer based in the UK, and they mess up, at least you have recompense through the UK courts. Paul made an excellent point regarding buying and selling costs. However maybe a small loss for a new life style is acceptable for you. We all buy cars and lose money on them but don’t bat an eyelid, when we lose a little on a property we feel hard done by!

  67. Steve, just remember that you cannot research everything when buying a house and then complying with all the laws to be resident (which you’ll be when you live here more than 183 days). Good luck to you, but I’d personally be doing the opposite if I were you.

  68. Fred, in what way can you not comply with the laws in buying a property because you are resident in the country??
    And what do you mean by doing the opposite??…do you mean that you’d buy first rather than rent?..or that you’d move to the uk rather than to Spain??

  72. I, like Steve, have thought about moving to Spain and taken one important additional step. Yes, the observant among you can probably figure it out for yourselves. For the ones at the back it is this: I have just moved to Spain. Renting for a year. I am weighing up the options on buying given the economic circumstances. Ooh, how contrarian. The key phrase here is weighing up.

    Here is my short take on the situation (It is late and I should really be going to bed).

    1. The economy is weak, but not broken. Though with 25% unemployment, I could be wrong on that. Result: potential buying opportunity if prices react.

    2. The housing market is opaque: prices listed do not reflect true value. Result: homework needed

    Which brings me to this conclusion. The price of a house must be calculated as with any other investment. The returns versus the risk.

    I need to know the yield I can get on my investment (and when I say investment, I intend to live here – but I will only do it at a sensible price). Yield is calculated as annual potential rent less running costs and taxes divided by price. Someone higher up pointed on a year-on-year loss of owning despite having no mortgage to pay. This needs to be verified in MY due diligence. If this is the true case, I will pass. This is NOT an investment.

    Annual potential rent will begin to set a sensible rate for investment price. If the property is 100k and you get 5k rent net (net means after costs and taxes), then your yield is 5%. 5% is about average for UK houses (but not a great return). The more important thing as I know you are all saying is that a return on investment of 5% is not really stellar if that investment subsequently falls in value by 50%. Go on, do the math/s. However, if it does fall and you have a mortgage on it, at least the cash inflow will pay that off if you decide to move on. That is the theory.

    So, given the absolutely huge oversupply (and there is more coming according to my sources), the weak economy / high unemployment / shrinking population I need to be compensated for my risk. That is all. Otherwise I will continue to rent for as long as I live here.

    And Steve… looking to move to Spain here is my advice to you:

    Rent out your property in the UK and use the cash to rent long term here. Do not buy unless you find an attractively priced property in an area that you know and want to stay in. There will most likely be opportunities in distressed investment properties from the bad banks, cajas and private sellers who will take almost any price and sometimes sell the good with the mainly bad, plus you could probably secure a deal if it is in their interest. It is unlikely you will find true bargains through estate agents, they are compensated as a fraction of the price so they tend to like a higher price. In short, understand the market, think long term and run the numbers.

    That said, I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion, the view points and will check back in soon. Good night.

  73. “Fred, in what way can you not comply with the laws in buying a property because you are resident in the country??”

    You can comply, but you won’t know what you have to comply with. What I said is that you can spend years researching Spain only to find that there are crucial aspects that you did not find out about. It all depends if you are coming here for retirement or to work, and if you can support yourself. Regarding doing the opposite, I meant look at another country. Only my opinion, feel free to ignore. I don’t want to put you off. I’ve been there and felt your excitement. Hindsight eh?

  74. And he fails to take into account that all Spanish property is crap built, so expect lots of repair/replacement costs in the future.

    All forms of energy are going up in price – Spain has no gas or oil you need to factor this into the equation as a Spanish home will have zero insulation so air conditioning in summer and lots of heat required in winter.

    As always the English take no account of water, taking it for granted, very silly for anywhere in southern Europe – read any of the accredited papers on desertification.

    The economy is definately broken – it pays to read regularly probably the best financial publication in the world – the FT.

    The banks are broken and will soon need an even bigger bailout than before.

    The jobs that Spain lost were supply side not export production.

    I agree that renting is the only route to take and hang on to your UK residence. Do not forget that responsibility for all insurance rests with the renter – Spain like other countries is not the UK. When you leave the UK, leave the UK mentality behind – it has zero value in another country.

  75. Thanks Fred and Mr Just Moved… :)

    Fred,
    I think I’d be a fool to go into this light headed. I can do research, and in that way I can be acclimatised to the prospect of buying/living in Spain, but when it comes to the purchase I will get the best lawyer and advisers I can get, or find. I would be a fool to do otherwise, in any country.

    We plan to rent for a year. I wasn’t initially enamoured with that option, but as the dust has begun to settle it seems the only logical, sensible, option.
    I am moving there to semi-retire…I will ‘commute’ to the UK until 2017 to work, but my partner will give up work and reside there full time. In 2017 we will both retire then, even though we will be relatively young (50’s/late40’s).
    Once our property in the UK was sold, even after the purchase in Spain, we would have more than enough (hopefully) savings to support ourselves into later life.

    We have considered other countries. I’m well travelled, and driven extensively through Europe. I love Slovenia. Like Slovakia, Montenegro,Croatia, even Bosnia! But Spain offers much more than them, even with the recession. Prices in those countries have still remained high (maybe unrealistically high?). This greatly effects the savings left to support ourselves. I also feel that, again despite the recession, Spain offers a more reassuring place to settle, especially for my partner.
    She’s Italian, and very aware of the bureaucracy, corruption, and red tape involved in living in countries similar to Italy/Spain. She does feel that moving to countries like Slovenia, Slovakia etc feels too remote in itself, too Eastern European. She feels reassured with Spain being mainland Europe.

    As regards the property as an investment?…to me it will be a home. The standard of life, living environment, and general experience will be far far more important to us than its future value.
    On that subject, I do think that people forget that property in the UK has slumped too! From it’s peak, at about the same period of Spain’s, my house has probably lost about 10-20% of its market value!!! This is a world recession, not a recession specific to individual countries.

    As each day goes by we seem to be feeling the process we need to follow, and feel is right for us, becoming clearer and clearer :)

  76. Stuart,

    Surely that ALL Spanish property is ‘crap built’ is a broad generalisation??

    I realise that we will be reliant on electricity, and don’t expect a gas supply. I’ve been told that electricity bills are low in Spain, but rising….but still substantially lower than in the UK. Service costs in the UK are ridiculous now!!!
    I would be looking seriously into solar power too if the property didn’t have it already.

    I fully expect to leave the UK mentality behind…it’s the main reason I’m thinking of leaving the UK. Although I’m not ‘blinded by the dream’ in Spain, I also wonder if UK living is as good as its cracked up to be?

  77. Again we ask if Stuart has ever been to Spain? I stayed at a friends’ place in Navarra last Spring, and the build quality was far better than many I see here in London. You wouldn’t get any German buyers of property in Spain either if there was any truth in it (incidentally I know a German builder who settled in northern Spain) But hey, he’s pushing an agenda of “all Spain is crap – buy my place in France”.

  78. Phew Steve, you asked for it! I hope everyone’s done here – that is people that live in Spain and don’t want to move back to the uk.. you all done? Good amount of replies though.

    Nothing wrong with creating a personal ‘dream’. Go for it, be wise and good luck! The bitterness towards Spain on here isn’t the norm. I repeat it’s because it’s a forum. Any forum/Any topic argues and likes to win arguments JUST for the sake of feeling they’ve really smugly won something. (saying lol etc)

    We moved from a damp house in the south uk to here. It had a stream running under it apparently that the surveyors didn’t pick up on. Horizontal rain blasting the house most of the year. People shouting or fighting outside most nights. It was a supposed nice place too. Most people we knew were stuck inside for the majority of the year due to the weather. We rarely saw them – unlike here. People here socialise as the norm. It doesn’t cost anything to go for walks every day, and only costs a fraction to have a small beer and tapas whilst practicing Spanish. You don’t use much gas for 6 months etc etc. Cheap car tax for great roads, council tax, water etc. and one more thing – for 6-8 months of the year it’s nice and SUNNY! As soon as we set foot in the uk we just put up with it until we leave again.

    We’ve been here for more than 10 years now, know what we like and how things are, and unless somehow forced, are never moving back to the uk ever.

    P.S. Miserable impish people on here would be miserable no matter where they lived! No matter what forums they are on. Good luck Steve!

  79. Once in Spain you just surround yourself with positive, proactive people. I guess some people on here are ones you hear bitching about the Spanish & Spain all the time. They can talk loudly too.

    These people you simply avoid. It’s not that hard really.

    Viva España!

  80. Thanks for all the replies…

    Mr A, thanks. I guess I don’t fall into your average Brit buyer(???) category. I’m willing to integrate into the culture, and want to avoid being another Brit abroad. I don’t expect utopia, I don’t expect a killing as an investment, I don’t expect it to be easy, but I’d like the different lifestyle. I’m sure I’d lose some plus points of the UK, but I’ll gain so much more. I see it as a home in a new life.

    I’m interested in the cost of living over there. What would the average cost be for water, electricity, housing taxes etc for a year on a 3 bedroom villa? I’ve heard that it can be cheap, but some on here have quoted that its dear(er).

    I can’t see me ever wanting to come back if we do our homework right….infact I can see me having trouble commuting away from it for a few years back to the UK!!!

  81. Steve, your reply was full of some real classic ‘Spain errors’ I’m sorry to say. Let us take “when it comes to the purchase I will get the best lawyer and advisers I can get, or find”. Steve, lawyers, financial advisers, bank managers, notaries and many other people have let down scores of people when it comes to retrospective property irregularities. You see, a lawyer just cannot definitively know if a house has a legal issue, otherwise there would not be all the cases there now are, would there? Likewise, your town hall (which you will deal with weekly when problems arise) also have no idea.

    “In 2017 we will both retire then”

    You know, I’ve met so many people who have moved to Spain and said they are going to retire in their late 40’s/early 50’s and then went slowly mad because they were bored to death. Moving anywhere new, initially, is a great feeling, but this effect wears off, like everything does of course. Unless you are in a city, you will be very limited in what you can do, and bear in mind the amount of travelling that is needed to get around Spain; it’s a big place and people who said they liked rural-living ended up detesting it.

    “I can’t see me ever wanting to come back”

    If I had a euro for everyone who told me that, I could give up work. Never say never is my advice. For example, based on my own experience of Spain, people who fall ill often want to return home for treatment.

    “She feels reassured with Spain being mainland Europe.”

    Currently it is, but that could change quickly. All indicators are (IMF data for example) is that Spain has to leave the euro currency, and from then onwards who knows what else? Spain is in Europe but you will quickly find that this actually means very little on a day-to-day basis, and it is Spanish local and national laws that you will have to deal with. The only benefit of Spain being in Europe is cheap flights to the UK and hopefully a strong exchange rate (but that could change of course, indeed it has been a major reason for many expats leaving Spain).

    Regarding cost of living, gas/electric/water has risen very sharply in Spain since I’ve been here. Property tax (IBI) has risen too, but all these things are variable and depend on lots of factors e.g. house/plot size etc. You’ll pay a lot for advice and professional “expat style” help. There are lots of costs you’ll never even realise before moving here.

    Mr Abusing’s advice is actually so weak as to not even merit an adult reply. How on earth do you know who a “knowledgable” person is when you arrive in Spain? Do you Google it lol? He even said to go “ask the locals who is dodgey and who is not” lol. Take it from me that you should quickly discard all the “advice” that Mr Abusing is giving you. It is not miserable or ‘impish’ (whatever that means) to know the realities of a country and talk about its problems and drawbacks. After all, I do know a little more about it than you do Steve, having lived and worked here. Good luck with it anyway.

  82. English damp squid is at it again,
    he has no construction experience but still mouths off – just like he did about regional cooking.

    Fred – let them get on with it – you pays your money and makes your choice. It’s the same here in France, there is an English language paper called the French Connexion and there was a double page spread on 5 Brits that had bought old properties – it was to me hilarious – not one of them had made a good buy – one couple even bought a property ‘unseen’ in case someone else bought it first and then found it had all kinds of problems. Another bought an old house without noticing that there were severe cracks in a wall – guess what, it fell down just after they bought it.

    I’ve yet to meet a Dutch or German who has made a bad buy – I’m sure they exist but I’ve yet to meet one but then having worked in both countries they learn common sense from the cradle.

    If the Euro collapses which it should because it cannot succeed without a federal economic system – vamos a ver.

  83. Steve, you will do what you want to do, nevertheless Stuart and Fred,as well as some others here are telling you the truth about problems in Spain, pitfalls, hype, as well as non-disclosure of important facts.

    I would not trust with a barge-pole someone who names himself Mr Abusing which paints a suspect image, however some of those who big-up Spain (not everyone) are simply stuck in Spain because their own property has fallen in value so much they won’t admit it, so paint a rose-tinted specs image which can be dangerous for genuine newbies. Some of them just want to surround themselves with more unfortunate buyers, but the truth is again, they cannot return to Blighty if they tried, they cannot sell and so say how happy they are, trying to fool others, poor souls!

    The facts are outlined here, but remember all the non agent/developer led predictions for the Spanish property market (ie economists) are saying the market will fall further, plus the glut of homes on the market has risen by another quarter of a million which will put more downward pressure on prices.

  84. Although this post has been interesting, it’s hard not to ignore the negative vibes, and sometimes horror story scare mongering!
    Fred, I appreciate that I’m most likely going to hear some information that I’m likely not going to realise, or like. I’d also be a fool to ignore it from people with experience. I think it’s about getting a balanced view.
    I understand the risk of the illegal properties, and the fact that that could be retrospective…….but rather than focus on what can go wrong , a little constructive advice would be helpful to how to avoid it. Or is it just a case of don’t just buy any property in Spain it’s all at risk???
    Surely the majority of property at risk of being illegal, now or retrospectively, are new builds or complexes? I’m very unlikely to buy either. So are properties over, say, 10 years old reasonably low risk?

    As regards the legal aids…..it sounds like I might as well go and get someone in a pub to do it as it’ll make little difference!!!!

    As regards retiring….I’m going to open a whole new can of worms here!!….

    I will not get board, I know that for certain. The reason I’m widely travelled through Europe, is because I’ve got a motorbike, and I’ve driven all over Europe on it. The ability to ride that bike nearly 12 months of the year would mean I would never get board. And in the same breath, the thought of being able to tour the vast area of Spain to explore it is a positive advantage. At the moment I’m lucky to get my bike out at all in the UK!!

    My other reason for retiring early, is that 2-1/2 years ago I had a big cycling accident, and I badly fractured my hip socket. I’ve exhausted the nhs, and know I’ve been left to get on with it. It is what they call a ‘life changing injury’.
    It prevents me doing my job, and I can’t see me continuing in it without majorly aggravating the injury, or making it significantly worse. I suffer constantly with it.
    Yet in the Spainish climate I’m like a new man. While in Spain I barely notice the injury. I know there is a heightened risk of needing treatment in later life, but if I stay in the UK there is a good chance my quality of live will be greatly reduced in the very very near future. I’m sure my time in Spain would greatly improve my life.

    I was also very active…cycling, running, motorcycling….now I don’t get the opportunity. Even though I would never cycle again in the UK, I would certainly consider it in Spain. I can never run again, but we like the outdoors, and love beautiful environments….we’re not just after beach, booze, and bargain buys.

    I’m considering Spain fully aware of the uncertainty. But I think people don’t realise the uncertainty everywhere at the moment. And as regards cost of living, again I think people underestimate the increase in the UK too. My community tax is well over £2,500, and is heading towards £3,000 per year!!!! And I do not live in a mansion!!!! How does that compare to Spain???

    Stuart, your story regarding people buying in France… The examples you mention are scary, but if you do stupid things like buying property without seeing it, or without having it surveyed, then you get what you deserve.
    I’m tempted to get two solicitors, and have at least two surveys done on any property in Spain.

    My other option is to just rent my house in the UK, and rent forever in Spain…..are there any horror stories involved with doing that too???

  86. Steve: Wouldn’t dream of trying to influence your choice one way or another. But I’m intrigued by your seemingly finding relief from your physical problems when in Spain. Are you sure it’s not just a surge of endorphins while you are in what you perceive to be your “happy place”?
    These claims are often made, but there seems no scientific or truly verifiable basis for them. Good luck in your venture, but do take great heed of people like Stuart and Fred. They may sound a bit snappy at times and don’t suffer fools gladly, but I believe they have knowledge and experience in this field. They don’t have a row to hoe or an axe to grind. Beware the advice of those who are committed and have no way out.

  87. Steve – looking to move to Spain,

    I was jogging in broad daylight and got flipped over a bridge in Galicia – not a penny in compensation because the woman driver was ‘enchufargo’ – that’s a word you need to get used to – fast.

    A property over 10 years old – safe LOL. When a judge (in Andalucia)reversed her initial finding for me after a confrontation with 2 Spanish thieves, after 3 months (because she got a bung) I asked an English guy who was a fluent Spanish speaker to interpret the legal document. Not that I don’t speak Spanish but I wanted to be certain that I had’nt made a mistake in reading her corrupt findings. This man had put a down payment of €40,000 on a centuries old house – it had no escritura. Apparently the owner and the agent had worked this scam more than once yes he lost his €40K.

    Renting means that you can leave when you want and your quite right Spain is a great country for a biker, just don’t rent in a Brit ghetto – it will be like you never left.

    The coast was finished at least 30 years ago,if you want to experience the real Spain you need to live behind the Snowy mountains. I would rec. Guadix where I used to live just don’t believe the locals when they offer to sell you land it’s all designated ‘rural land’. Also the cost of living is easily 30% cheaper than the coast.

    We rented a 3 bedroom/2 bathroom apartment, after 7 years of the rent being uprated yearly by the relevant index we were paying €256 per month. I’ll bet that if you offered €200 now the owner would rip your hand off.

    M/biking – take the road to Benelua and keep going – great biking country. It’s the route I took on my voortrek to France and back – 4000K – what a journey – I’ve always rec. Spain to my biker friends.

    With long term health problems you need to be mindful that the Spanish health system is now bankrupt as is the rest of the Spanish economy. If you move to Spain you will lose your right to free healthcare in the UK.

    In France I have had none of the problems that I had in Spain and I/we have been here 3 1/2 years now. I would’nt give up the four seasons for all that unrelenting sun and heat of Andalucia – and the biking is just as good – far more roads of all kinds and you can always wander into Spain along the minor roads.

    Cough up for a month long visit on the bike – atke your time going through France – it just might make tyou stop and think?

  88. Steve, you will probably be better off finacially by renting your house out in the UK and renting in Spain. Less risk all around and it will give you better flexibility. In Spain they do not really have the level of social services like they have in the UK so although you may not need much help now if you end up being the last one alive and your injuries get a lot worse then Spain may not be such a good place. As Stuart said, people are renting properties out so cheap what is the point in buying. At the moment, buying in Spain is a bit like having a tattoo, easy to come by and almost impossible to get rid of.

  89. Steve, ‘the negative vibes and horror scaremongering’ stories as you call it are based on real life situations that posters here have experienced, they are just outlining truths and scams that still go on. Huge excess of properties for sale and still growing,huge transaction costs, illegal builds, land grabs, crooked Mayors and town halls, Spain’s financial problems, crazy unemployment rate, Corporate debts,unregulated property industry, poor build quality, etc etc are negative and part of Spanish property.

    Someone with the weird name, says ‘surround yourself with positive people’, have you considered he might be saying that because so many could be in the mire and can’t move even if they tried.

    You appear to have made your mind up irrespective of the many warnings, food and drink are cheap though, and the weather is for nothing, many Brits leave though in July/August so hot.

  90. Wow this thread has more repeats than Porridge. Electricity, Solar Power, 45 degree heat, bad build, good build, German build, cons, moans, loans, investment, divestment, council tax and now health. Should we stick to Rhyl?

  91. I did reply with a lengthy reply…I think it was pulled by the mods….

    Reap…I don’t think renting very long term is a viable propersition. If we’ve not decided within a year I think we’d come home, or look elsewhere…for whatever reason.
    As a side note, since we decided to pause searching for property we’ve struggled to find long term (a year) rental properties!?!? And what we have certainly haven’t been cheap!

    As regard my injury…someone asked whether I feel better because I’m in ‘my happy place’…this is a definite no. It’s either the heat, climate, or humidity, I’m not sure which??
    My mum has severe arthritis, and is registered disabled because of it. Each year she visits my brother who lives in America. After being there 3 months she’s greatly improved, if she stays 3 months, which she sometimes does, she is totally reinvigorated. It must be the hot climate that does something to the system?
    Although my injury is a major consideration for any future plans, I also have to balance probably living a painful aggravated existence in this climate, or choosing what could be a future period that is pain free.
    I realise that ultimately I would still be in danger of becoming reliant in a health service that may be inferior to the UK…..but I hope you can see that it’s a gamble I have to at least consider.
    I know if my mum lived full time in America she would live a totally different life, almost free from her condition. She’s too old to even consider it now. I don’t want to be in the same position in ten years, without at least looking into a better option.

    Paul, I have not made my mind up at all….what I’m trying to do is get some rational information and advice, preferably not just from the opposite extremes of opinion of “it’ll be hell on earth!” Or “it’s all sunny days and rainbows here!”
    I’m trying to gain information rationally….I feel that people thinking that ‘another doe-eyed green Brit lost in the dream’ has just walked into the room and trying to beat the truth into him with an ulterior motive, or as has been suggested, sucker him into the luckless souls trapped in the purgatory that is Spain!

    I’ve been offered very little constructive advice to what to do to avoid the risks (..other than you can’t!!) or much help in contacts that might explain the enormity of the prospect of what I’m doing!

    I’m not ungrateful for the help I’ve got, but it can’t possibly be as cut an dried as ‘its all corrupt, every purchase WILL be a disaster’.
    I accept the risk of the market. Many comments have focused on the future price crash….as a future buyer that is a positive for me, not a negative. If in 12 months I still feel the risk is too great that my purchase would be worthless in 5 years because of the market fall..then I don’t buy anything! The opposite is that I wait for the market to forecast a future rise in value (….in any country, in any market), buy, and then kid myself that my home is now a gilt edged investment!!!…..the same thinking that has harmed a lot of buyers in Spain today!

    I can only balance the information I can gather…..I am by no means a gambling man. My decision will be thought through, and if I think it’s the right decision I will walk away. What I’m doing now is giving myself the opportunity to see if it is feasible. 12 months renting in Spain will answer a lot of questions, it will give us time to experience the climate, and the infrastructure.

  94. I’amazed by the ignorance shown by some the comments I can read here.

    First and some imoprtant tip: until 2009, the most common buyer of property in spain were spanish. Thanks to the credit crisis generated by the banks “bad praxis” (initiated in USA, and arrived Europe via England)the banks were giving mortgage loans to families that couldn’t support it in a future by some factors (long mortgage terms, abusive clausules,job insecurity, insolvency…). Now, more tan 70% of buyers are foreigners (russians, germans, saudis, etc…) because the crisis has sashed the economy of many spanish families.

    Second tip: The financial crisis has grown in EEUU with the crack of Lehman Brothers (the states rescued its financial system by a rescued of 700.000 millions of dollars. Since falling of Lehman Brothers in 2008, english great banks like RBS, Lloyd´s, HBOS were rescued by 47.000 millions of €. German banks go the same way, by an amount of 480.000 millions of €. All of this in 2008. In Spain, the rescue of the banks has done in 2011/2012, and don’t reach the amount of 40.000 millions of €.

    Spain has bad press in the realstate market. Why? Because there were any people that use this market to speculation. It’s not about the quality of the constructions or the legality of the projects. Is a matter of artificial growing of prices. Now, the prices sin the realstate market are droping to a more accurated and rational level.

    Is a good moment to buy on spain. If you want to continuing the discussion of the realstate market in spain, it’s your way. But in the last year, more and more foreigners are buying in spain. That means spain isn’t too bad to live, no?

    And no, I’m not a realstate agent. I’m a buyer that has purchased a property in spain and it’s te best inversion I’ve make :)

    Regards!

  95. Just read the story of Jean Deak. (I know there are two side two each story) I have just returned from a holiday in Las Ramblas,yet again looked at property and may be I am unlucky but I have yet to meet a British estate agent selling Spanish property who does not come with some scam to save money.
    Allso were are all these propertys with the 50% discount. Looked at a flat that had been empty for 3 Years, stank to high heaven (feel sorry for those up stairs) 70,000 euros was the asking price, Like all good estate agents there are ways round this. Off course he forgot to mention the 5,000 euros debt that came with it, As long as this carrys on the only sales will be to those who cannot see further than the sun in the sky.
    I bet there are 50,000 like me how would buy in a shot if there was some clarity. For £6000 a year I can rent something nice and walk away at any time. I think thats the answer for me, before you say it is lost money. It is only £60,000 over ten years same amount it will be for Spanish death duties allso I would get that renting my house out. Still envious of you lot living there

  96. Brian, you will probably find the estate agent has added €20,000 on for themselves. Regarding rent, you will pay €3,000 a year for a €70k property. One of my firends is going to buy a large villa in the Canary islands and he said the purchase price is less than what it would cost to build. He is in the building game in the UK so he has good knowledge. Property in many parts of the world have seen gains of over 10% in the last year. It is still a bad investment in mainland Spain as you cannot rent them out as easy as many other places let alone know if they are legal or not.

  97. It’s a great time to buy property in Spain, as long as you find a house that is not one of those modern generic ‘capsules’ developed all along the costas.

    Just inland amonst the little villages you have a choice of some fantastic properties, full of character and charm, that have stood for hundreds of years and have no dodgy building illeglities tied to them.

    The villages inland from the Costa Tropical region are especially pleasant as the coast is not so built up as the costa del sol, and you are a stones throw from Granada.

    There is a lot of scare mongering about the Spanish economy. The young will continue to move to the Cities in search of work. But never underestimate the LOCAL economy. There is a far greater network of local economy activities such as food markets and subsistance farming in Spain compared to the UK. This may be enough to keep smaller local populations buoyant until greater economic recovery.

    This year our house rental is seeing the busiest year since we started renting. The previous years haven’t been bad at all either.

    If you let the ‘system’ fail you and think the worst, then the worst is what will happen.

  98. “It’s a great time to buy property in Spain”

    Depends. If you are retired and don’t have to work to pay the mortgage and can support yourself outright, sure. If you’re moving and need work to raise or pay a mortgage or other loan, then obviously not (unless you are in high-demand niche work area.)

    “full of character and charm”

    … and mould, damp, water ingress, drainage problems etc. Sure, those lovely old houses are pretty, but living long-term in one can be endless series of problems, especially in the harsh inland winters here in Spain.

    Paul, you forgot to point out to people about renting their homes that the law in Spain is being radically changed on this issue, and that short term rentals will be much harder with a whole raft of new requirements to adhere to. Hope you’ve been paying all your rental taxes Paul. Can you send us a web link to your rental propeties by any chance? lol

    Btw, noone “lets” the system fail them; it generally fails them irrespective of what they do. Look at how the system has failed the youth of Spain, for example.

  99. corrupt practice ( “I can guarantee the people of Spain that here there is a stable government that will fulfil its obligations,” he said ) Now living for many years in Spain or España is a bad nightmare for everybody a country where nothing has worked out or neither will everything is a hell shithole and a mess the whole concept is a mafia controlled corruption in every place and most people know this very well,funny nobody want’s to work or any trust only crooks are on the hunt so anybody thinking to do some thing in Spain or España must be out of his minds or a crook himself.

  100. i am looking to buy a country property around Sax, Alicante area. In my extensive search of Estate Agents properties in this area, cottages with land are typically being reduced from 250,000e to 99,990e Is there something I don’t and should know. I am resident in Spain and have been for 11 years in the same property. I am looking to move away from the coast and Urbanisations overseen by so called Presidents,. Sax is 30 mins to airports, coast etc. As I am no spring chicken and live alone, i need access to town and medical facilities in a village setting. Can anyone answer my dilemma at what , might possibly be land grab or massive housing development planned. Agents tell me prices have fallen drastically and are not aware of any major development or problems in this area.

  101. To Spain or not to Spain

    Enjoyed perusing the drollery. For some time now, I’ve contemplated changing my cultural and social allegiance from this “green and pleasant land” for a more colourful,hedonistic lifestyle, something closer to nature.
    This desire partly stemms from my enjoyment of reading and learning about the fauna and flora in different parts of the world.
    I’m tempted to forsake the U.K. and go to live in Spain. This would obviously neccessatate participating in the light hearted frivolity and “tomorrow is another day” mentalilty of the iberian populace. More importantly, being resident in Spain would enable me to experience first hand the mind-set of the the local fauna. Given time and perseverence, it may be possible to begin to understand how the animal kingdom’s lower life forms such as the political leaders, civil servants, administrators, in fact, anyone who is able to get their oar in, have managed to degenerate a once proud and noble country into a society that the rest of europe has difficulty comprehending.

    Only the spanish people can do something decisive about the dire mess that their country is in. I wish them well.

  102. I am currently looking at Spainish property. I have several relatives who have retired to spain over the last several years living in different locations.
    I find alot of the comments laughable. I have lived in several counties and own property in a couple. What you cannot glean from some of this retoric is peoples expectations and that obviously drives there comments.
    I belive this was a gold rush started as mention previously by especially expats who had big plans to have a ‘holiday villa’ or escape to work in spain in the property boom, construction and reestate, and of cause the local crooks from bottom to top (goverment officials) who added fuel to the fire.As far as I see from the present moment onwards purchasing to retire or rent is for the few who can afford it, not for speculation short term, you would better placed buying in the current US market for the next 5 years, but thats still speculation.
    One cannot stress to higher how important research is in any purchase, and one must not fall in love with an idea or perception of what I should have because someelse has it . such as “kids with phones” .
    In the end it your problem if you buy a new just because some ones lent you the money DUH !!

  103. Good luck Martyn. PITFALLS definitely. 99% of people I know have had good results buying in Spain, although there’s a gang of commentators on here that really can’t stand anyone to be happy living in Spain having bought luckily without any problems. And I don’t just mean people that come for the illusion of an eternal holiday. People that contribute to society or simply love the ‘healthier’ climate. It’s their life, their business. Report back please!

    It is about luck too buying in Spain. Rent first in the area. Look at the infrastructure (make sure it’s not a half done building site), and ask locals for a good estate agent who offers you a sensible percentage.

  104. The pitfalls of buying in Spain are not just with the purchase itself. Once you’ve bought the property there are a whole range of new requirements and legal hoops through which you must jump, and coupled with the dreadful level of service and attitude in most Spanish institutions, it can make owning a home and living in Spain unpleasant at times.

    I would advise against moving to live and work here with a family, but that’s only my personal advice based upon seeing friends have to uproot and leave because there is no work, or because corruption has affected them in some way. Given the experiences I have witnessed, I would not invest in Spain. But that’s not to say someone else can’t make a go of it.

  105. I never said pitfalls were JUST about the purchase Fred. You make up things in your head whilst judging and putting everyone down on this site once they helpfully try and comment. EVERYTHING isn’t up for debate, playing the devil’s advocate all the time just for the sake of it.

    Once purchased you have a lot to do to actually live here and it takes a long time, but that’s all the fun of eventually living here once you’ve solved all the official things Spain makes you do. A lot of tasks have to be solved in Spanish too, which is a great first step to learning to language… when you have to.

    My experience is that if you talk to any Spanish officials, in your best Spanish, and smile and talk to them about anything, ask them things, you get along a lot better. There’s some miserable Brits around that think Spain is this Spain is that, but it’s THEMSELVES that’s the problem, not Spain. If you always turn up with an attitude you might as well go back to where you came from.

    I imagine someone like Fred really rubbing Spanish people up the wrong way, and that’s probably why he’s like he is all over this website.

    Invest in the healthier lifestyle and better weather, but not for any quick return obviously, just like the rest of Europe.

  106. You can never solve all of the official things if you move to Spain, because the laws and requirements themselves are changing. Just look at the latest amendments to the law of residency and healthcare for foreigners, or the new laws on asset declarations for example, both of which retrospectively affect people who already moved to Spain.

    As everyone can quickly see, Mr Steven’s knowledge of Spanish affairs is shockingly naive and as such, can be safely ignored. I wonder what ad hominem attack is coming next now that an alternative opinion to his has been raised? lol

  107. Fred, you’re always project how YOU act in your words to others.

    Try a taste of your OWN medicine for a change. All you do is try and suck the life and soul out of everything people say.

    I was explaining from my OWN experience and advice on how to act in Spain. How can I be naive if I’ve been through all this myself.

    God knows what Spanish officials think when Fred walks through the door.. AGAIN…

  108. Again I see the word invest, I am currently working in the USA where you have to fend for yourself, for medical etc also different states have different laws regarding taxes and property ownership, you have to do your homework, as there are scoundrels abroad looking to make a buck.
    Here people buy property for vacation etc in places like Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Colombia, Peru. In these places I think there are bigger issues than Spain, and people are not investing to make money, it is to live the dream.

  112. Fred, I agree and I have had the experiences you mention. I think Spain is a little boring and after all these years of going there and having lived there I do not go as often as I once did. I only went there twice for a total of 3 weeks this year, my Wife went for one week. I used to fly over about 6 times a year, leave the kids there for the entire summer holidays…. In the Spanish areas the service is poor, Spanish restaurants are generally poor (not restaurants run by foreigners), attitude is poor, everywhere is corrupt and if you want to buy things it is a lot more difficult than the UK. Valuable post goes missing in Spain, you can’t sell or rent your places out there… One good thing that you can still do is prepare a great meal with the great veg and salad on offer, some of the red wine is good, the weather is better than the UK but these small benefits are not enough for me to live there again. Spain is a phase that people go through. Corruption and unhelpful officials hold a country back as people get sick and tired of it, there are may stuck there for financial reasons.

  113. Excellent post reap, spot on with your analysis. ‘Spain is a phase that many people go through’, even the sun doesn’t put Spain in the top 10 destinations to live, Scandinavian countries rate much higher despite the dark cold winters,and, they can always pop down for a top up without the stresses of owning property in Spain.

    Many Brits try Spain, pay the extortionate 12% completion costs, then if they sell another 5%-8% high selling costs, and who makes the money, yes the agents and lawyers!

    It’s ok for those who work in Spain (estate agents are often mired in misleading people)but proper regulated jobs, then enjoy tapas and wines. However many supermarkets could do with inspections for un-hygienic baskets, trolleys and floors in many towns.

  118. Thanks Mike, I have a ‘bungalow’ over there that is fantastic, great pool, free irrigation water, refurbished place, great views, two acres of land all fenced in, electric entrance gate, two garages… but I only stayed at this place for one week this year, probably one week next year and with the running costs etc it just means it is not money well utilised. You could live there for £10,000 a year as you could be fairly self-sufficient but trying to sell a property in Spain is almost impossible. I may leave it another year or two and see what is happening then. One of my friends just sold a place in Cyprus within two weeks of putting it on the market. Russians purchased it. He said last summer the flights cost him £4k as he did not book early, then £3k to run it for the year and he said for £7k he could buy a decent holiday to most places in the world. Easyjet have released flights for next summer and I was looking at the return flights from Almeria in mid August, they are over £250 on the return leg only per person! I would be expecting first class with BA for that price. No wonder their share price is going up with those prices. More people will drive there / catch the ferry instead but it all adds to the difficulty of a holiday or holiday home. I booked to Alicante instead as I will stay up there first.

  119. At those fares Reap, it makes more of a case for South of France and Northern Spain than the Southern Costas. Dover to Girona ferry and drive can be done in 16 hours door to door, have done it several times even in a Luton Van for ceramics.

    So, whilst petrol and tolls (if you use them) can add up you don’t have to hire a car when you get there.

    Agree with your friend in Cyprus, eg sell EU property (holiday home) as euros are a good exchange rate against the pound, £200k say, can buy lots of holidays for years without costs and aggro of owning.

  120. @tony, didn’t mean to put you off, you can have a good life in Spain and it really depends if you are coming here to reside permenantly, or just for holiday periods. If the former, I’d advise not to invest, as Spain is not a properly run country and the inefficiency and unfairness of their systems will leave you without any rights and noone to turn to if things go wrong. To be in receipt of fully legal status in Spain is a very difficult to achieve and of course they won’t tell you when you’re not, so the first you’ll hear is when your bank account is embargoed. That’s how things are run here.

  121. I find it hilarious that Brits and Americans have a totally different attitude to home-owning than mainland Europeans.

    Mainlanders don’t buy a property to make money from, except of course ‘property developers’ and in all the sane northern countries (UK excepted) they are properly regulated along with the rents.

    Most of the UK’s problems originate from the stupidity of expecting to generate profit from a non-producing asset. My Dutch and German friends look on the UK as a madhouse.

    Many Brits seem outraged at the taxes levied on property purchase and sales, which is the norm across all mainland Europe – how different would the economic climate be in the UK today if there were capital gain taxes on ALL property transactions.

    As some intelligent posters have said – why buy a crap built property (that only looks nice) and tie up your capital when you can rent.

    I think the most important thing that any Brit should do is to loose the Brit mentality – it has zero value in other countries.

  122. The empty developments (and there are not hundreds) lay forelone due to lack of opening licence. The property that is available is very,very low as new build occupation. So prices have firmed up and in many cases 2 or 3 buyers are outbidding each other. Country property is cheaper still, but Elveria Marbella San Pedro are now steady at same prices as 2001. Due to demographics Scandinavian,Dutch and Belgium buyers taking over from British and Irish buyers. Dont mind driving people around for 2 days every week for 51 weeks a year, we dont get paid 5% we get a percentage of that. 90% of agents charge that fee, we dont rip people off. If some one buys a property for 85k there is enough for a sales person to cover the petrol, insurance, phone bill and the tax. Probably about the same pay as working in a bar for a week. Dont get me wrong if a millionaire buyer turns up(HA,HA,HA) well its going to be well deserved pay check!

  124. We would love to buy in alicante area of spain, but the thing what deters us is the issue and stories surrounding ‘debt’ being attached to the property and not the person, and the new owners becoming liable for the debt on completion. It seems even with the most reputable solicitor and diligent checks will not show a ‘hidden’ debt. Has anyone had experience with this?

  126. I think the ALICANTE province is a safer bet Sue. I am sure you can find out if there’s any debt attached to property if you investigate further, away from the estate agent. It’s rare to hear of scaremongering stories about house demolition outside of Valencia. Luckily for buyers I know, I’ve also never heard of friends taking on debt from any previous owners.

    Does anyone else on here know of ANYONE who has taken on debt from previous owners or ANYONE who’s house has been demolished?

  127. Thank you Fred for your comments although its the Alicante area we are interested in, but your post/ link was very interesting.
    Roger thank you for your reply, hopefully others may add to your post to allay our fears further. We have read so much on buying in spain and potential problems especially with ‘bargain’ property’s and inheriting debt, corrupt solicitors and underhand estate agents, that it is very hard not to become ‘put off’ and a little reluctant to trust anyone.

  128. Sue, there are property legality issues all over Spain and demolitions have occured in many regions (many are unreported). Anyway, it’s not just the house purchase that is the issue. Dealing with Spain on a day-to-day basis is not a pleasurable experience. I wish you luck, but I’d absolutely not be investing here if I was starting out. That’s just my personal opinion you appreciate, but it is gained over a decade of living and dealing with Spain. There are many other places where you will be safer and make a better investment.

  129. If you listened to certain people on here Sue (These are more likely people trying to do business in Spain, which is another world to living or retiring here as an ex pat and will have a lot of official problems) you’d definitely stay at home and never come to Spain or buy in Spain Never enjoy the nice etc etc etc that Spain has to offer. Alicante is a great handy area. Good luck if you do decide to go for it!

    There must be a few thousand people that read this website? (who know at last 50 people each in Spain)

    so I’ll ask again.. apart from the unlucky people featured in the odd famous article about house demolition and problems… Does anyone else reading this thread know of ANYONE who has taken on debt from previous owners or ANYONE who’s house has been demolished? ANYONE?

    It’s been great dealing with Spain and solving INITIAL problems (all good when sorted out) in another country for us, in another language, and vastly more interesting than living back in the uk. A new life!

    Once problems have been solved you don’t have any problems, apart from which bar serves the best tapas, who throws the best fiestas, which place to visit/explore next, which hill walk to go on, and wondering when it’s going to get colder and start raining. This summer’s nice weather has dragged on and on for 7 solid months now! Sick of it!

  130. Sue, Roger’s comments are naive. Also, he has a complex about his comments somehow being more valid than anyone elses, which of course is not the case lol.

    Sorting out problems in the way Roger describes are not pleasurable in any way I can tell you. Spain is frustrating and inefficient in the areas that matter most, and of course when you need something done urgently, chances are that it will not be handled urgently. That can be stressful, especially when you in a beuracratic nightmare of a country. There are a lot of hoops to jump through in Spain and it does not just come to an end as Roger states; laws change frequently and have recently become very draconian here. In many ways the new laws could be seen as targetting foreigners.

    Finally, quality of life is not bound to a single country. All countries have hills to walk on, places you’ve never been etc. Good luck with it.

  131. We are grateful for the replies and have read all of the comments with much interest. We are not looking to buy to live in alicante, but as a holiday home, and enjoy many weeks of the year there. We have done a lot of research and spain does appear to have a complex legal system, which if you do not have the right solicitor can land you in a lot of bother, which is not what you buy for in the place. We have read several articles on Debt being attached to a property and not the person, so this is of great concern because ibi and community charges are registered however some debts are not. It appears that as the spanish legal system is so slow some debts do not get registered until many months later and in some cases years. Again propertys not properly registered or have all documentation in place when people have brought because solicitors have not done the checks properly! But what is this paperwork. We have worked hard, saved our money and would be devestates if our dream was to turn into a nightmare. We love alicante had several holidays there and consider outselves to be sensible and intelligent people. But from what we read and hear so have many others, who have been caught out. Hence our hesitation.

  133. Sue, without this man trying to continually attack people on this website, I’d go for it and look out sensibly for all the pitfalls. Otherwise you’d never take the plunge. Most ex pats we know in Spain (maybe foolishly like ourselves) sign on the dotted line and hope for the best. I don’t know anyone that’s been in trouble personally. Spanish problems to sort tend to be walking around towns photocopying multiple pages and going back and forth to the police station and official offices (not sure if this is stressful?).

    Noone’s got back though about my repeated questions about debt attached to a property or houses being demolished. Funny that…

    Just off out Fred.. everything’s ok with our house by the way.. no problems to sort today or bureaucratic (spellcheck) hoops to jump through.. If anyone else has to jump through hoops today, please ring the FREDLINE for advice! HAHA

  135. No, it’s only you Fred, someone no one can disagree with. You’re like half a man. You need to toughen up a bit to live in Spain, learn some more Spanish too. Constantly moaning on here like a little old lady. And yes, good idea, get some exercise too.

  136. Most Brits we know in Spain Sue are trying to sell or given up hope of selling because prices have fallen so much, plus according to R Acuna and Associates there are estimated at 2.5 million properties for sale in Spain which might be conservative too. These will depress prices for years.

    My advice is listen to Fred in this case, he speaks it as it is. You’d be well advised not to buy and then pay 11%+ completion costs on top of price plus large selling costs if you need to sell.

    Why tie up several hundred thousand euros when you could use this to rent or holiday anywhere for years. Roger sounds like he has vested interest in Spain, and those always talk up the market!

  137. Roger, you’re asking me to toughen up and yet you can’t even stop whining like a child about how you are being ‘attacked’ on a blog lol. Since I’ve been running a successful business in Spain for over a decade I think I can safely ignore your advice. So can everyone else of course.

  138. Thank you for your comments. We have tried to read as much as possible to help with possible purchase.We have just looked at a ‘bargain’ property we asked the estate agent to see the paper work for it, he seemed quite put out saying it was all with the sellers solicitor, after much probing he advised us that has no finalisation of work deed, but second occupation license, so not such a bargain after all. Estate agent told us this is no problem to get it, there doesnt seem to be anywhere you can actually see a consistent selking/ buying process in spain, such a pity, we feel it is too much of a risk to buy in spain.

  139. You made the right decision and your experience shows exactly what Spain is like on these issues. You’d think by now that Spain would have sorted out these issues, but in reality nothing has changed at all. By law, agents must now have the essential paperwork for the house. Who were the agent Sue, if you don’t mind me asking?

  140. Sue,
    you’ve listened, checked and you have learned – great.

    A suggestion – we now live very happily in France where so many French invest in a camping car/van. £20,000 will buy you a very good s/hand camper and the whole of Europe/North Africa etc. is open to you.

    With a camping van you can check out Eastern Europe – the Elbe, the Danube, the great forests all over Eastern Europe – you will be shocked at how beautiful and interesting it is and you may well find Spain very dull and not all beautiful in comparison.

    And of course no hotel or restaurant bills to pick up and you can choose restful quiet places to stop for the night – just a thought.

  141. How come you’re always on here Stuart but live happily in France? France is great I agree and really handy for traveling. We prefer Spain even though people have some problems. No one I know has these massive problems. Might be a different Spain somewhere.

    Fred, remember when you do your Brit whinging on like a little old lady = LOL! (lol). Now off you go to your Spanish class you obviously need!

  143. Fred: we saw it advertised on Right move overseas, which shows all property’s for sale by several estate agents. This particular one was being advertised on there by an agent in Algorfa (dont think were allowed to name and shame on here). But we found out it was being advertised by 2 others, one also had it up for let!!
    Stuart: thank you for your advice, to be honest were exhausted by the whole buying abroad process, but the camper van option is an idea but not really what we wanted. But thank you.
    Roger: i understand your frustration as you are obviously very passionate about Spain, but after a 5 day trip to view property’s, we’ve come home confused, disappointed and worn out, and baffled! Can’t you at least see what would have happened to us if we would have brought this property and believed the agent telling us that although it had been found that the property was never registered by the builder as completed, but it was ok to buy because it had it second habitation license and mains water and electric. What protection would we have had? The property laws and legislation on estate agents need strict guidelines. They should not be advertising a property Until all the paperwork is in place.
    Confidence in buying in spain might then return, including ours.

  144. For the time being Sue you have made the right decision as Stuart, Fred and others suggest. Spanish property is a risk still and will remain so for several more years at least, with far too many properties on the book, questions over legality, exorbitant transaction costs buying (and selling, poor sterling/euro exchange rate. It is totally unregulated and Spain will not address this problem.

    A life in the sun is not all it’s cracked out to be, can be too much in the Summer, despite cheap wine (how much can one drink, use your money either in safer property markets or for holidays where you like.

  145. Sue, having said all the above, if you can pick up a legal bargain, that is the worrying bit for you by the sounds of it, the legal bit, then you may get 10 to 15 years of holidays before you are bored with it. People buy a caravan for £30k in the UK, spend £2k to 3k a year on site fees and then they have to hand it back to the site owners after this period for peanuts, so if the money you are going to spend is not going to finish you off if it goes missing then maybe you should consider it but the point you have to think about is when you want to sell, it could be impossible as it will take many years to sell the millions of empty ones. If you have your own place you can keep all of your clothes there so it is a bit more comfortable than a standard holiday let but if you do the cold sums like Fred states, 4 weeks a year, 10% purchasing costs, maintenance, maybe more being ripped off selling you will probably find you could be staying in a 5 star property for your holidays. I do not regret buying my apartment and when my kids are old enough I will give it to them and they can take their kids there on holiday. I am happy knowing my kids and eventually grand kids will have a good holiday every year. As said before, if it is a lifestyle choice then do it. Make sure it has a full escritura to give yourself a 99% chance of being legal ( I know the Priors had a full Escritura) and if you can afford it then maybe you should. You can’t say you are not well informed with the above. If you are after an investment don’t put your money in Spain, that has to be the last place you would look at. Just beacause i am bored I don’t expect everyone is.

  146. LOLFred lol. Sorry people, he makes me get involved and I sink…

    Reap.. the PRIORS and FAMOUS cases like that that have been on the television are unheard of amongst the 100 or so people I know of in Spain. If every reader on here knows that amount of people how come noone’s been on here with cases of their friends house being pulled down etc. I’m talking thousands of people.

    There’s really great helpful advice on this website but also FAR TOO MUCH drudgery! Spain, as ourselves and our friends know, isn’t like that at all.

    I’d hate anyone to look out of their kitchen window when it’s regularly pouring down and then they go out to eat at pricey places, where not many fiestas and local holidays are going on, and experience people not being as FRIENDLY as the Spanish are when you talk to them (P.S. they ‘HATE’ this regular FRED on here apparently.. that says it all)… to regret buying in Spain. Now it’s a bit colder, as an example, at the weekend we’re leaving inland Spain and traveling south to the coast. About 1 hour 20 minutes away.. to summer! We nearly bought in central France, where it’s really really green. It does look nice though when it’s not raining.

    I hope you can get lucky and move to Spain Sue and surround yourself with positive people. I’m enthusiastic for a reason! Where we live there is a mixture of really enthusiastic Brits who are active in the community, learning the language, and joining healthy lifestyle groups.. then there’s the percentage of Brits who hate things, hate the food, drink all day, bitch about anything, spread gossip, hate the locals. I’m not surprised if the locals hate them back (Although they probably don’t). Luckily these people are fading away slowly back to blighty.

  148. Roger,

    I did all of the things you are doing in my thirties and that is why I am bored of it. What you are telling me does not spark my imagination one bit. Many will sell in the UK, move there, get bored of it and then they cannot move back as they do not have the financial means to do so, prices in the UK have gone up 5.8% over the last 12 months… For your average person, they would be better off renting their UK house out, rent long term in Spain for peanuts and if they get bored then they are not stuck. Roger, there are thousands worried about having their propeties pulled down, even if the Junta have not contatced them yet, there are thousands of illegal properties. Your 5 friends do not paint the entire picture. Go and talk to someone who meets many people such as a hairdresser where all this is happening.

  149. Steve….Looking to move to Spain.
    I managed to read about half of the various replies regarding your future move to Spain, some good, some bad, but the most important thing is how do you wish to live. If it’s to plough most of your money into property in Spanish property forget it. If it’s to lead a better life than perhaps you do in the U.K then thats a different matter. I have lived in Spain for 20 years. Have two properties in the U.K which have been let for 20 years, but i rent in Spain. Rent direct from a Spaniard and on a long let, cheaper that way. This covers most expenditures in the rent, and the income from your let property in the U.K should well cover this, (depending where you live in the U.K) plus the U.K property does increase in value as shown recently unlike property in Spain.

    I have been involved with various business over the years (all at once)including owning a build company and found in the U.K property slumps every 10 years or so but always manages to pick up. Naturally there are things in Spain which needs sorting out, especially in the property market but on the whole i have lead a contented live as a pensioner in Spain. There are many things one can talk about regarding Spain but if it’s a relaxed type of live one wishes to achieve in a warm climate country then Spain is a place to consider. NHS is very good and as a pensioner the service is free as in the U.K and if one is financially secure then one has no worries. It’s the doom and bust clients i have mostly read about but believe me when i say it’s a good life here if one has no financial problems. As one gets older forget pools, large gardens as they need looking after. I live close to the sea, Costa Del Sol and have access to all the water i need. There is so much one can do in Spain, but you need a car. Look for all the amenities that an aging person would need, transport, health centers, transport etc, and most important enjoy your stay in sunny Spain.

  151. Fred,
    like your articles, all make sense. Certain taxation laws have always been in place even in the U.K. Assets abroad, the same as U.K the difference is the Spanish are becoming hard on people not declaring and rightly so, too much under the counter so to speak.
    As for people having no financial problems there is a slight difference, one can choose a warm climate country to live in instead of the bleak grey skies of Britain.(Mostly) That’s the main reason expats come to Spain. The plus sign of moving to Spain is one can always return to old blighty.

  152. Fred,
    Naturally if one is contemplating spain as a place of refuge then don’t bring ya money here. Use ya card. The only money i have transferred into spain is me pension, back up beer money so to speak. Sorry for some word spelling but meant in a joking fashion.

  153. “The plus sign of moving to Spain is one can always return to old blighty”

    Well, not in all cases. Differences in exchange rates and the property price slump in Spain means that many return to the UK destitute, or even in negative equity. Moving here to live and work and moving to retire are such vastly different thngs.

  154. Fred,
    I was referring to pensioner’s that are perhaps financially secure. I did mention in the article “don’t bring ya money here” so the exchange rate does not really apply.
    Basically i look upon Spain as an ideal place for pensioner’s that have no financial worries and in a position to return to blighty. Have a few years of sunshine and fun and if fed up pack ya bags. (depending how old you are). But i find if you speak to most pensioners and ask if they would return to blighty they invariably all say NO. Naturally i can only speak for myself but always advise young couples with families to forget the sunshine as that does not put food on the table.

  155. Fred,
    The main article refers to property falling to perhaps another 50%. I can’t see this happening, dealt in property for many years. There may be the odd one or two cases where this could happen but the impression that all property is about to crash is unrealistic so don’t buy now but wait until they drop another 50%. You could wait forever. If one wishes to live in Spain do ya homework and be sensible.
    The value of any item is the value you wish to pay. “My house is worth a million” who said so, put it up for action and see. Saw on Homes under the hammer, house valued at £60k, a lady finally bought it for £46k. It’s horses for courses.

  156. Does anyone know how easy/difficult/impossible it is to get a finalisation of work deed certificate on a property that has never been registered as completed by the builder? Never had first habitation license.But has a second habitation license! We are still really keen to buy in spain, have seen this bargain property but are worried despite reassurances from the vendor and agent selking the property that it can be got after purchase? Any info gratefully received.

  158. Sue,
    Forget it, there are plenty of properties available in Spain without that kind of problem. Ask your lawyer what kind of safeguard you could have, perhaps the actual sale and the passing over of money once you have a licence and the Lawyer is satisfied with the legalities. Just a thought.

  159. Fred: you are telling me to ask a lawyer and put our trust in one, when you amongst many have been so disparraging of the legal system conveyancing and all it entails!! You usually have so much to say for yourself on this post and others much of it negative. Thank you anyway.
    Caccia: thank you for your thoughts and kind advice, we appreciate it. The problem is finding a decent trustworthy lawyer in Spain. We have been on that many sites nothing seems consistent and many are negative regarding solicitors and conveyancing.

  160. Sue, you do not mention the area of the property you are seeking, plus is it a flat or villa and if a Villa has it been built on campo land. Be careful if it’s campo land, many bad tales. If a flat in a community, service charges can creep up. Heard of people walking away from their property due to the rising cost of the services.
    Not trying to put you off but why purchase before the that big decision. Have you thought of renting, gives you a good chance to look around, it also gives you time to acquire the information you are seeking and time to make friends which could give advise and direct you to a good Lawyer.
    Sue, there are good lawyer so don’t lose heart in the system.

  161. Sue, you’ve just descended into sillyness now. If you purchase in Spain, of course you will have to put your trust in a lawyer (and a notary, and many other people besides). However, that does not guarantee that you will end up with a legal property.

    My posts are not positive or negative; they are just real life observations backed up by articles and stories that you, yourself, referred to in your very first post. Anyway, how do you know what is positive and negative when you have not even been resident in Spain for even a day? So yes, I am asking you to use a lawyer, which is what you will have to do to proceed with your purchase, no?

  162. Caccia. The property we have been interested in is a apartment just outside of Daya Vieja. It is a holiday home we are looking for, as we spend 6-8 weeks a year holidaying, 6 weeks alone this year already spent in Alicante different areas, renting off owners direct and have done so for the last 3 years. We have come to love certain areas and know what would and wouldnt work for us. It is just the legal system that is baffling, there doesnt appear to be a site with recommendations for solicitors. But guess if we want to achieve a lifelong dream we may well just have to bite the bullet and pray all goes well. Thank you once again for taking the time to reply and your constructive advise.

  163. Sue, recommend you look in a local free English newspaper from your desired region and get in contact with an English speaking tax/legal firm to advise you. You can probably get a free consultation and can ask them for recommendations of good local lawyers. You might even go to a few – if you hear the same names being mentioned, you should gain a degree of confidence. Above this, you should probably use a tax/law firm to deal with the local laws if either your Spanish or knowledge of Spanish laws is insufficient. That would be my approach – speak to someone who is knowledgeable on the matter, whose reputation depends on doing good repeat business and who conducts the discussion in English. I’m sure the cost would be a fraction of the purchase price (perhaps first consultation would be free), you should ask that in advance when you talk on the phone. You can also discuss your concerns (no doubt many of which are raised in this thread) and get an informed opinion on the matter. Good luck.

  165. Sue, try this site it may give you some idea of what one needs to know about purchasing property in Spain. Although it is dated 2011 i believe it has had some added information regarding non-residents. Anyway they seem to be reputable and may be of interest…

    “http//www.spanishsolicitors.com/pdf/how-to-buy-a-property-in-spain-2011.pdf”

    Hope it maybe of some help

  166. Hi Fred,
    I’m NOT trying to be argumentative but looking back on some of your write-ups was a little confused with the last sentence Roger stated in your October 25th.

    “In many ways the new laws could be seen as targetting (targeting) foreigners. laws change frequently and have recently become very draconian here.

    Do you feel this was directed at people breaking the law, such as not declaring overseas assets, not declaring income on property lets, non-residents letting and not declaring, which in all cases is also against the law in England. Not quite sure what he means “targeting” and “draconian. Lets face it “foreigners” have got away with murder over the years and have been quite happy in living a life of reilly.

    If one is also concerned about bank accounts being raided Spain, is not Cyprus, and if one has sufficient funds no doubt they have had financial advice regarding this matter, or one could just pack “ya” bags and leave Spain and become a non-resident. Live just under the six months the rest in Blighty. “Ya” villa of flat, a holiday home. (talking about people in this position)

  167. Caccia, can “ya” tell us what law of England makes a person have to declare that they have an overseas property? Having to tell the Spanish authorities about things that are not generating an income is my point. If the property is rented and money is earnt, then of course they have to declare that, but Spain wants to know about the existence of all such assets, and not just the income they may generate, and that’s none of their business, in my opinion.

    It may be your opinion that foreigners have got away with murder, but I think you’ll actually find that foreigners have just done what their host country permitted them to do. Most foreigners I know want to live in Spain legally. I personally know a few business owners who have left Spain to become non-resident, and that is Spain’s loss.

    Packing your bags and leaving Spain is not always possible, especially if you have commitments in Spain e.g. children in school, a business etc etc. Your example scenarios are very simplistic Caccia; real life is a lot more complex.

    Two quick questions back to you. Why can’t you use the word “your” and do you know Roger by any chance? Funny how he disappeared lol.

  168. Fred,

    I’m quite surprised at “your” response. It would appear you have never been in business or never filled in a tax return in England or Spain.

    1. If overseas property is generating an income this should be declared on your tax return and added to your total income the same as unearned income is added to your pension for tax purposes.(there is a two way agreement with Spain, as you may know about tax exempt) Give you an example, are you saying that if you are receiving interest on capital (capital could also be classed as property if it is generating income.) in another country it is not taxable?.

    2. Non-residents have to pay tax on unoccupied property which is calculated at a % of the IBI due to owners for years have not been declaring and if the property has been let how many of your friends you know of have been declaring this. Have you not been reading “your” locals lately.

    3. The law on taxation in Spain has always been there that is why i happened to mentioned “foreigners” and “draconian” measure as though it was something new.

    4. I do not know Roger but only through the correspondence between you two, therefore one would assume you knew him more than me. Perhaps he knew the law on taxation and has done a runner. Know a few people on the Costa that have done that.

    5. My last line to “your” reply, what did you not understand what i said.

  170. Caccia, it would appear that “ya” cannot read properly. You said “if overseas property is generating an income” and I was referring to property that is not generating an income. Not all properties owned by foreigners generate income, in fact quite the opposite. Spain wants to know what property you own, even if it is not an income generator, and I say that is none of their business what property I own abroad. If I earn income, I declare that income. Building a database of peoples assets has no use other than to try and extract more money out them in the future.

    Spain has definitely targetted foreigners in the most recent law changes. You must have been asleep when they changed the law to make foreigners declare all overseas assets and when they brought in the law to prove their income before getting healthcare and residency entitlement. All of these issues have been widely debated and there are hundreds of threads from people in all sorts of bother. I advise you to do more research.

  171. Fred,
    You need help. You are typical of a bar street lawyer. What i would suggest is that you to have a chat with “your” accountant, if you have one, or “your” solicitor/lawyer, if you have one.
    It would appear you are not up to date regarding the Spanish taxation law. Again, have a word with an accountant and please stop giving bad advice to people through your mail.
    A law has been passed that they now have the right to check on non residents second home as to the amount of electricity and water being used due to the system over the years being abused by property being let and not being declaring. These are not “draconian” methods, they are asking people to play by the rules if they wish to live or own property in Spain.
    Fred you have to DECLARE all oversea assets even in the UK. All or most western countries now have the power to exchange “Foreigners” bank account details. Don’t know what planet you have been living on or have never had an accountant. I still have one in the UK and one over here. Lets face it Fred, you must know people that have abused the system, ie, owning property and not declaring income. I do. Best of luck to them for getting away with it for so long, but i bet they are feeling a bit concerned now as they gradually realize the game is up, and the “draconian” measure are JUST seeking out the law breakers. i know i would be.

  172. Fred,

    Perhaps this may broaden “your” mind about the tax system in Spain. Stop giving bar room lectures on “your” mail.

    I have an accountant in the Uk and Spain, do you!

    “http://www.advoco.es/advice/8-personal-tax/76-spanish-non-resident-tax.html”

  175. Information to all,

    For those that may be confused regarding the NON RESIDENTS Income Tax on property besides the payment of the IBI there is a site on Olive Press you can look at.

    These are not draconian measures purely for foreigners but for the Spanish people also. One would assume that Spanish people fill their tax returns within the law and one would expect foreigners to do the same.

  176. Caccia, calm down – five posts in a row is a clear sign of a frustrated ranter. I have accountants in the three countries where I own properties. I see you chose to ignore the other laws that I mentioned, which specifically do address foreigners. It’s not all about tax. And once more for the record, Spain’s Modelo 720 requires, for the first time, that residents have to declare all their real estate worth over 50.000 euros, whether it earns income or not (residents Caccia, not non-residents). I have friends who reside in many other countries and do not have to divulge that they own a second home overseas (even if it earns rental income they just declare that income). Ya just don’t get it, Caccia lol.

  177. Fred,
    I do get it and afraid you did not. It’s a pity you didn’t come out with all this sudden information, and other’s which you seemed to have left out as to some positive advice instead of criticizing the country you are living in. I would have thought having 3 accountants you should have known about the tax for non residents which you didn’t seem to going by your previous writings which would have given some insight to people thinking of residing in Spain.
    All you had to do was direct them to a site giving information about living in Spain, simple really, and to answer some of the points you are referring to that i have not answered I would have thought a person with 3 accountants would need no explanation. I believe i did answer your queries in a more positive and legal way.

    By the way, you must have known people that have let property and not declared, perhaps you could answer that question. Well Fred enjoy the Spanish sunshine and to those that are thinking of moving here it’s a great live if “ya” keep “Ya” nose clean and “Ya” money in old blighty and if some bar lawyer tries to give you advice just say “sorry i have a proper accountant and a lawyer.

    By the way Fred did you look up the site on Olive Press regarding non residents, have you learned anything. Duh.

  179. Cassia, Reap and Mr just moved to spain, thank you very much for your advise we have appreciated it. Thank you cassia for trying to help us and the for the link it has been very informative.
    Fred: why do you find the need to be so patronising and condesending, there really is no need. You obviously have a lot of useful knowledge on Spain to impart to others, but your bullish attitude doesnt bode you in a very good light. Let people have their opinions and be graceful in your replies if you do not agree. I hope its a case of your bark being worse than your bite, otherwise, I would be horrified if i was to buy a property next to yours. If we do buy in Spain i really will have to add that to my list of things to do: check out the neighbors, as bad ones can be as bad as inheriting previous debt!!

  183. You’re right Mr.Stevens everything Fred says is the opposite of the truth and he should be shouted down in the forums by anyone who doesn’t like what he has to say. It is solely his negativity and lies that are destroying Spain’s reputation and economy. In the real world Spain’s politicians, political system and economy are upheld as a model of transparency, accountability and democracy, at least in North Korea. His insistence on commenting on these untrue stories and his flagrant wasting of our time “researching” so called “facts” which we are then tricked into reading gets under everybody’s skin when we all know everything on the internet is lies, especially the things we don’t agree with. We should take no notice of the “facts” that Spain is consistently falling in global rankings for transparency, easy of doing business, political corruption, education, judicial independence, employment and ranks just about bottom in every quantifiable measure in the EU.
    I suggest we all put our fingers in our ears, shout loudly about how great things are, pretend he isn’t there, sit around drinking too much and refuse to vote (what’s the point) or learn the language, so that like you, we all have absolutely no grasp of the reality of the situation in the country we call home and hope our property price might rise enough so that we can then sell to some unfortunate and get the hell out.

  184. Speak of the countable fool! See you’re still berating who you can on here Fred!

    You make absolutely NO sense when you say foolish things like above to people who you know have lived here for years and been through the system.

    lol indeed

  185. Don’t worry about moving to Spain Sue. Get the best legal help you can though. Fred is not typical of British in Spain I can tell you. Just a typical troll that is definitely old enough to know better.

    It is a bit of a pain in the a*se to read though isn’t it, when all you need is information and advice.

  186. Fred,,

    I think you will find that the Spanish authorities wish to know what assets a resident has over €50K and the value of a property (when first purchase price) comes into this region together with all other assets that one has. If you don’t own a house then there is no problem, just other assets, it merely shows that a house is part of your assets. You say that the Brit Inland revenue are not interested if you own property in another country, but if you declare the income and they find you have properties other than in the UK i bet they would seek further information, ie: criminal activities, money laundering, not fully declaring money previously, and so on. One is not saying you come into this category but you can see the implications if one is not playing the game.

    I don’t wish to get bogged down with the Spanish tax system as most tax systems can be complicated even in the UK and one of the reasons one uses an accountant.

    Resident’s Fred come under the Spanish tax system the same as a resident in the UK coming under the UK inland revenue, so why do you think it strange that the Spanish wish to know your assets. Do you think it would be due to capital gains.

  187. Fred,

    Fred,
    Sorry for the continuation but supper was on the table.

    I can quite understand your concern if you have three accountants with properties in three different countries together with a possible home in Spain, (probably difficult to sell) so there must be a liking for you to remain in Spain or you would have just packed your bags and leave and become a resident back in the UK and after six months or so once again become a resident in the UK with no fears of the Spanish tax system but under the umbrella of the UK tax system liable of paying capital gain there (if you are legal).

    But please don’t bring your woes onto other people but a more positive attitude by informing others that wish to live in Spain that it is a pleasant warm relaxed country to live to in.

    Every country, including Britain, has it’s up’s and down’s and as yet do not know of one Spaniard that would change the lifestyle for a British lifestyle accept for financial reasons.

    Naturally i do not know your personal circumstances but please be more positive about living in Spain which you seem to enjoy.

  188. not at all Ben (good 2am post ha ha)

    you’d be a fool not to see problems that Spain has to deal with. But that’s not what trolling Fred’s about. Are you blind? Unless you ARE Fred…

    We’re all struggling by, but I’d MUCH rather be struggling living in Spain.

    Just off to the coast for the weekend. See how many HOUSES are selling locally.
    Yes, people are buying cheap houses in Spain at the moment. Then they will live in Spain. Enjoy Spain. CONTRIBUTE to Spain. etc. etc. What do we need to say on here? Sorry it’s not as negative as you’d like to read.

  190. can not believe people still want to move to a very dodgy law breaking country but I would say that after being stitched up for 38,000 sterling.it has now been nearly 8 years and still no further in court and no answers from solicitors when you can get hold of them it is the same old answers.I am now thinking about getting the british media and television involved, perhaps that may get answers

  191. Caccia, sorry to dissapoint you but I have no woes. I have a thriving business and many good friends in Spain. My attitude is of a realist who lives and works in Spain (and elsewhere in Europe) and my comments and opinions are just as valid as anyone here. If you wish to interpret my comments as woes, then that is your personal issue. Also, I don’t take tax advice from a blog; I listen to a professional, as I’m sure you do too (that was my point to Sue, but alas she just took it the wrong way because her pride was dented and then Ad Hominem Stevens had to leap in and post yet a few more irrelevant comments lol).

    Btw, a lot of the cheap houses have legal problems, so watch out. Cheap always comes with a catch.

  192. Mr A,

    I feel sorry for you Mr. A and afraid not my business to know, but if you feel it would help any person wishing to live in Spain perhaps you could pass on some information as to what the problems were that caused this repayment of your money and give an insight to other as to what to avoid.

    Perhaps the involvement of the British media and British television (good story for both) may speed things up.

  193. Hi Fred,

    Regarding the “woes” your mail gave no indication of the better part of living in Spain except negative advice.

    Perhaps if you were more diplomatic in your so called advice to people such as people like Sue perhaps they would not take offence, such as, “why post here” and “just descending into silliness”, not very diplomatic for someone having a thriving business, which those two inverted sentences could equally apply to you.

    As for the tax advice i was merely pointing out positive facts which your accountant can verify, and if i am wrong i would appreciate you telling me so and send me the link.

    Most of my points are, shall we say, directed mainly to person’s that are retired and in a decent financial position, not to people that are still working. Working in Spain can be hard and have seen many returning back to the U.K but for others it’s a good healthy way of life. I don’t have to worry about getting up in the morning’s for work, i eat when i like, have holiday’s when i like, return to the U.K when i like and so on, so life for me and many of my friends in that position would say they live a happy contented life.

    So i say once more, for people that are financially secure life in Spain offers a better way of living than in the U.K, period.

  194. Caccia, I wouldn’t agree that there is a “better way of living”. There is just living, and one persons “better” is personal to them. You sound like a very solipsistic person, and not at all like the vast majority of people who are suffering financially in Spain. But I’m so glad to hear that you can do everything you want, when you want, and how you want. Life has a funny way of putting a spanner in the works of people who say that. I’ve met so many…

  195. Hi Fred,

    Well Fred, do you think one would have a “better way of living” back in the U.K, bearing in mind it’s not all sunshine and roses back there and like here England at one time had never it so good.

    I don’t class myself as being a solipsistic type of person but a person contented with living in Spain with others around my age enjoying the fruits of life.

    If i had the choice of working either in Spain or England the choice had been made and Spain was the final choice to retire to and not England. I have seen better times in Spain as of now, but basically it did not really affect me, we still eat out more often than we eat in which one could not really do back in the U.K

    My mail basically, if you care to look, had been directed mainly to people who had thought of retiring to Spain and was purely from a retiree’s point of view which i believe you may be confusing that with someone that is working here and trying to make a living. Most are thinking of semi retirement or retirement and for those that see the sunshine whilst on holiday and think of working here i had said much earlier “Forget it” and know doubt if and when you retire your outlook may take a different point of view. But i can only speak as i find things. There’s not much more i can really add except to perhaps give basic advice to people that are thinking of coming to Spain so they may have some idea prior to making that big change. One can only direct them to which road they wish to take and advise them to take professional help and assistance.

    But a little personal help on this site can make things easier for them but not in a derogatory fashion.

  197. Fred,

    You must watch the news and read the Brit papers. At the moment for people that work life is difficult in making things meet. The cut back on many things and the spiraling cost of living and the stagnation of wages stagnant does not help, and the cutback on most social things also do not help.

    As I have said previously, a pensioner that is financially sound does have a better and healthier life here. The figures shows the amount of pensioners who retire to Spain. Ask some of your friends that are retired if they would return to the U.K. naturally there maybe one or two that would say “yes” if they could sell their property but the majority that possibly rent would say “no”.

  198. hmm.. that’ll be a NO then Fred to my last question ha ha ha

    Just back from the coast where we’ve witnessed MAJOR building and SOLD signs. Not just halted building sites. People saying there’s a great deal of interest at the moment from Russians, Chinese, Germans, Icelandics, Dutch… which can’t be a bad thing financially for Spain can it? Most local places that we’ve known to be on the market for a while are now snapped up.

    loving the FRED quote ‘I have no woes. I have a thriving business and many good friends in Spain.’

  200. Zest for life? Oh certainly. Also a zest for telling the reality of Spain, which I know you so enjoy reading, so get used to it lol.

    Going to the coast might be a major life event for you, Mr Stevens, but most people actually do that quite often. Of course, properties on the coast have suffered more in terms of value loss than those inland, mainly because the Costas are so overbuilt, and so there is such a wider selection of crap built cheap and irregular property.

  201. Fred,

    Regarding “the better way of living”, could you indicate to which link you have read that Spanish pensioners have migrated in mass to the U.K for a “better living” and to a link that indicates the amount of Brits that have migrated to Spain for a “better living”.

    I think you may find the answer that you are looking for but don’t waste too much time looking “cause” you won’t find it except the mass migration of the Brits”

    Personally i don’t know of any Spaniard coming into that category, perhaps you do, would be pleased to know.

  202. If you really need to know, yes, we go to the coast for business most weekends Fred (font of all knowledge?… is that just Brit knowledge?). Sorry if what we saw and heard from people wasn’t what you hear your end of Spain. No need to constantly have a go at people on here though is there?

    Caccia please ignore this man. Have a great day tomorrow me love!

  204. ‘Of course, properties on the coast have suffered more in terms of value loss than those inland, mainly because the Costas are so overbuilt, and so there is such a wider selection of crap built cheap and irregular property.’

    You’re wrong Fred btw. It’s just because of.. er.. competition yeh? Prices are still quite high at the coast. (have you been recently?). adios tonto…

  205. “I shall remove myself from this thread forthwith!”

    lol not the old “I’m leaving the thread again” post… and then he posts again doh. What a Spain noob. At the coast here they are giving away 2 flats for the price of one currently. Seeing as you post with about half a dozen different aliases, Stevens, I doubt you will be leaving somehow.

  207. Caccia, be patient. Some of us work for a living you know. Not all of us can go to the computer when we like, how we like etc ;)

    The Spanish people are very insular. They do not emigrate to other countries, especially the older generation. If the UK had the same climate as Spain, they still would not emigrate in great numbers there, or even elsewhere of course (you mention the UK but did not apply it to other EU countries – why?). The older Spanish do not integrate very well either, and although we are constantly told that it is the Brits who don’t integrate, the reality is that Brits actually integrate very well, considering the language challenges etc. Spanish people also do not travel very much; they prefer to stay within Spain. The younger generation may change some of these trends of course, especially now that Spain has a serious long-term youth unemployment problem.

    Your assertion is that because expat pensioners from the UK move to Spain, but not the other way around, it is because the quality of life in Spain is better, but that is a very simplistic reason. Pensioners emigrate to Spain from the UK because of climate principally, but also because it’s near, and cheap to get to, and also it has a large British influence in many coastal areas. It’s also in the EU and health care can be received etc. So these are the reasons why retirees mainly come to Spain, I would say. I would also think that UK retirees have more savings than their Spanish counterparts, and that is a big factor in deciding to move abroad. It used to be that Spain was cheap, and it was the “UK in the Sun” but of course that has all changed.

    Because your argument is completely based around pensioners, it is also flawed. Quality of life is personal to the person who experiences it, and it’s not just applicable to pensioners. There is no magical quality of life ingredient that Spain has to make it somehow “better” than other countries.

    Btw, Spain’s National Institute of Statistics (INE) released data showing how, for the first time, Spain is loosing more people to emigration than it is gaining from immigration. Do you want a link?

  208. Mr Stevens,

    Please, oh please, don’t leave “me” self all alone to combat FRED, just trying to help the poor guy and others that wish to join us happy crowd living in Spain.

    For someone such as FRED that has a thriving business i would have thought a bit of encouragement to others would be of help instead of whinging about the amount of tax he may have to pay on all of his assets, not that you don’t pay any tax in the U.K. Dah

  210. Oh Caccia, now you are making lots of silly mistakes. I have never whinged about paying tax; I’ve declared all my assets and am content to pay, and I have said this on many other threads (that you have obviously not read lol). What I said is that it should be no business of Spain what homes I own, as long as I pay all my taxes. I didn’t go and start a shell company, which would have been very easy btw.

    This is a blog – it’s not a combat zone. It is a place for debate, not wars. You are confused. Best give the Internet a rest and get outside perhaps Caccia? After all, should you not be out enjoying Spain, with your zest for life, rather than typing on here all day demanding answers and links from me? After all, let us not forget, you can go out whenever you like, however you like. You can’t keep relying on me to explain to you how Spain works…

  211. The most important thing for you all to think about with property prices is that next year when we get lorry loads of beggars arriving every day in the UK the public of all colours and creeds will vote us out of the EU and your free hospital care will end along with other things that I have not even thought about. Your cheap way of life may well come to an end and then there will be another 300,000 empty homes in Spain that you cannot sell. Exiting the EU is on the way and then only the serious cash people will remain. When thinking about any change of lifestyle or investment you need to take into consideration any Government policy changes that will affect that. I think there is at least a 50/50 chance we will leave the EU.

  212. Fred,
    Can’t understand what you are saying:- Hum, your quote.

    “Pensioners emigrate to Spain from the UK because of climate principally, but also because it’s near, and cheap to get to, and also it has a large British influence in many coastal areas. It’s also in the EU and health care can be received etc. So these are the reasons why retirees mainly come to Spain, I would say. I would also think that UK retirees have more savings than their Spanish counterparts, and that is a big factor in deciding to move abroad. It used to be that Spain was cheap, and it was the “UK in the Sun” but of course that has all changed.

    I agree with you Fred, life is much better in the U.K, don’t know why people you are referring to in the above quote bother to come to Spain, but at least one person such as yourself can see the benefits of remaining in Spain. Don’t require any link and as to why Spain is losing people but that has not been my point and you are now talking of financial reasons causing the younger set to migrate.

    Not sure how old you are or how long you have lived in Spain, but apparently not of a pensionable age if you say you are still working, but Spain is not new to your type of migrant and has been a draw from the day’s you could not purchase any property in Spain with STERLING and it was the wealthy and pensioners that moved here. So please don’t come out with all that waddle of you knowing Spain and i shall repeat once again that life is better here than in the U.K for pensioners who are financially in that position, if not they would have remained in the U.K.

    When i first came here there were no Easyjet, Ryanair, jet2 etc so that will give you some idea of the day’s i am talking about. In those day’s I could have bought a one bed new flat fully furnished by the builders for 950 pesetas, in fact nearly purchased the whole floor of six flats comprising of one, two and three bed flats, but that’s another story.

    So please don’t give lectures on Spain as though other are ignorant about life in Spain, but i still love being in Spain for all the reason you have given in your quote together with thousands of other pensioners and people that live here happily.

    You still don’t get it.

  215. Fred,

    Sorry about the time, but just came back having a nice Spanish meal with friends

    Your quote. “Oh Caccia, now you are making lots of silly mistakes. I have never whinged about paying tax; I’ve declared all my assets and am content to pay, and I have said this on many other threads (that you have obviously not read lol). What I said is that it should be no business of Spain what homes I own, as long as I pay all my taxes. I didn’t go and start a shell company, which would have been very easy btw”.

    And if you had followed what i said was they are not interested in you home/s but your assets and property is part of your assets.

    So if you are content in paying your taxes etc it would indicate you are also content in living in Spain due to your thriving business. Forget the name property, think of assets.

    About to have a good lie in, dont need to get up for work.

  217. UK is among best places to live in the world

    “http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2487805/OECD-finds-UK-best-places-live-world.html”

    Spain could be the best place to live for sunshine, your old bones and tomatoes maybe but there is more to life than that for most. Living amongst a bunch of brain dead corrupt politicians is not much fun when they are running the country into the ground with no light at the end of the tunnel. Just because someone is old does not mean they are wise either, they could have been repeating the same mistakes every year for the past 50 years. You can look at stats in different ways and we could of all purchased many properties 20 years ago almost anywhere in the world and you would have made a profit, we all know that. Many of the most uneducated people I know have millions via this route, they have motivation, that is how they got there. What Fred states is correct, Spain is a nightmare.

  218. Hi Caccia

    It’s refreshing to have you on here. You can’t combat this anti-Spanish gang though. Now Fred’s friend Racist Reap has popped back up saying the UK is the best place to live even though in his eyes he just sees the colour of people’s skin, even after recent reports how immigration benefits the UK. Oops.. I’ve popped back up again too! What am I playing at?! ha ha

    Don’t let ’em grind ya down!

    VIVA ESPAÑA!

  220. Ad Hominem Stevens, the man who can’t even make his mind up if he’s leaving a thread or not lol. Are you sure you want to be associated with Caccia?

    Caccia, it’s not anti-Spanish to criticise certain of aspects of Spain that do not work properly or which are unfair. Your classic error is saying that you have quality of life IF you have money. So what about pensioners that are not financially well-off Caccia? You’ve answered your own question: quality of life is not just about Spain, it’s about the financial resources you have when coming to Spain.

    Btw Caccia, you don’t have to keep telling us about your fantastic home life, it’s a bit cringing. We believe you lol.

  221. Fred & Reap

    LATEST NEWS. Out of the 25 countries rated as the best place to live, the U.K came 25th.

    Even Portugal is rated higher than the U.K.

    Can’t understand why “ya” haven’t packed “ya” bags and left.

    Basically most people purchase a house to live in, not to make a profit and i could write a book trying to explain the difference, but at the end nobody makes a profit except “ya” next of kin, but it would be pointless to explain.

    Reap, what appears to be your problem, can understand Fred’s, but are you like Fred, stuck here “cause ya” have no work, no freebies here mate like in the U.K. they don’t won’t spongers living in Spain, although Fred is fortunate in having a thriving business . Can’t sell “Ya” villa or flat , bad move in buying if “ya” thought of making a quick buck. So don’t take “ya” miseries out on this site, just pack “ya” bags and leave if “ya” think the grass is greener somewhere else and shall be gracious enough in saying “best of luck”. Just go into the site printed, 24 other countries rated better than Britain to live in, take “ya” pick.

    “http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240988/France-tops-list-best-places-live-world-fifth-year-row–Britain-languishes-25th.html”

  222. Caccia you clearly have some serious anger management issues to work out. Clearly Spain is not working out for you otherwise you would not be glued to this website spouting all this hatred.

    There is no “best place” to live, you just don’t get it. At your age one would think you would be wiser, but as Reap correctly says, you’ve actually grown more stupid. Quality of Life indexes are meaningless. If Spain is so great, why are all its youth leaving to work elsewhere? You are obsessed with pensioners as if they are the only people that exist in Spain. A lot of expat pensioners do move here and you know what – a lot move back again, or are forced back (for example by changes in the recent laws that specifically address foreigners).

    You started out by saying Spain was “better”, and now that you’ve lost that argument, you resort to silly phrases like “ya” because you can’t hold a coherent argument. You even post a link to an article that says France is best lol – contradicting yourself yet again.

    And stop changing aliases, you’re just embarrassing yourself on here now.

  223. Our family moved to Marbella three years ago, from Norway. We came for the climate mainly, to escape the winter darkness but work issues mean we are now moving again, this time to London where my wife has been offered full time work and a long term contract. Norway is also rated very highly as one of the best places to live in the world but for us we require work and the work we need was not easy to find in Spain. Marbella was a challenge as all the work is being chased by so many people and Spains unemployment is so bad and there are not many prospects for our children when they leave school. So I would agree with the commentator above that quality of life is dependent on so many things and there is no best place in the world to live. Spain was not best for us unfortunately because of the work situation. Where is best? For us, now, it is London.

  226. Mr Stevens or Roger, whatever name you go by these days, you are making up stories. I have never mentioned the points you make, just that the UK is full and many people of all colours think the same, I know as we speak about it. Back to your cup of tea and your new maye yaya. You are right, you can’t win.

  228. Hi Caccia, you have the whole doomsaying gang now here, Fred, Reap and Stuart. Good luck.. Please don’t waste too much of your time though. It’s definitely hitting your head against a wall scenario. (anything to do with any thoughts of Spanish progression that is.) Watch out Stuart doesn’t sue you though?!?! ha ha. That’s by far the stupidest comment on all this long thread.

  230. To Fred & Reap,

    I assume when you read something you both understand what you are reading.

    I have always said that for a pensioner that is financially secure the quality of life is better in Spain than the U.K.
    Statistics speaks for itself and that is the reason they move to spain. I’m not sure how clearer i can make it. I have also said that the sunshine does not put food on the table and for people to return to the U.K is primarily for financial reasons.

    Only REAP know the reason of returning to the U.K and does not really come into the equation of a pensioners financial position, he sounds like is a person that could not make it in Spain (or any other country)and has not yet found the quality of life, he thinks he has but……. By the way REAP i was talking about the day’s of Mr Franco’s, way beyond you time, so please button up. It’s a good life in the U.K if you’re a sponger, that i agree to and soon one is joined by many other spongers, is that the quality of life one is looking for. Things will get harder in the U.K with all the cutbacks in store.

    If one cannot have a serious conversation as to why people move to Spain and return to the U.K it’s pointless, but to add various innuendos as to not being able to find work, children, stuck with unsold property that’s a different story. My main point has been and will reiterate that a pensioner that is in a financial secure position would have a better quality of life in Spain than in the U.K, that is why they move here, if not then they return. But to bring in all sorts of excuse as to why Spain is a deadbeat is wrong.

    Fred i’m sure you could also find many things wrong in the U.K but people still migrate there and no doubt will complain the same as you do about Spain, but the discussion was not about the rights and wrongs of a country which you seem to appear to harp about all the time about Spain. If one is not happy with the situation, take your losses and move out, simple really, i know i would and if the time came when i need to make that sort of choice i would return to the U.K but not deride Spain because it did not suit me.

    Mr Stevens you are right, you can lead the horse to the trough but……

  231. Artur,

    You are perhaps the only person that has spoken the truth as to why you have moved to the U.K. But as you can see the whole discussion has been about the quality of life which you also were seeking in Spain. No doubt if the same situation regarding work etc occurred in Spain you and your family would still be in Marbella.
    But my point is, which other do not seem to comprehend is that the quality of life is better in Spain for a pensioner that is financially secure, hope you can see my point where other can’t.

  232. Reap, I don’t want to WIN anything on here really?!

    Everyone should live where they like and want to live, rather than live where they don’t like to live, as in Spain for a few on here apparently (unless they’re financially trapped then that’s a different story). Just really strange that’s all.. and fascinating to hear some comments. I’d never hang around people with these constant berating views of Spain. or maybe just avoid the obvious loud Brit complainers you find around.

    Good luck in London Arthur and thanks for commenting!

  234. Arthur,

    It was nice to hear that your wife managed to find work in London with a long contract. Basically the contract means nothing and would be written in favour of the company. She could arrive at work one morning and be told to clean her desk in one hour and paid possible a 6 months salary. Happens all the time. What then, survive on JSA for a while. Would you call that the quality of life.

    But i admire you for doing things positive and not to complain about the life in Spain except of not being able to find work. That also goes for a million or two of British people living in the UK.

  235. What I interpret Artur to be saying is that quality of life is not quantifiable, or guaranteed. His family moved to Spain because the climate was better, but Spain is not better just because of the climate. The weather slips to insignificance if you can’t support your family, which is what happened to Artur and his wife I presume. So, overall, Spain was not better for Artur’s family. One can seek a better life, but invariably there is no best country to move to, which of course also means that there is no such thing as a “quality of life index” or a “best country list”.

    Btw Caccia, when Artur said he agreed with the poster above, he meant me. I also find your post above to Artur most distasteful – you really are a horrible piece of work.

    “Everyone should live where they like and want to live, rather than live where they don’t like to live”

    Wow, this must surely be the most stupid thing said on this thread so far. How on earth can people just decide to “live where they want to live” when there are so many conditions to satisy beforehand e.g. financial, employment, health entitlement. Amazing ignorance. Game over I think.

  236. ‘unless they’re financially trapped then that’s a different story’

    ‘Attacking Fred’, you actually read only what you want to, then twist everyone’s words whilst insulting people as much as you can. Always feel better after though do you?

    …and you say you used to be a teacher! That beggars belief!

  237. Fred,

    There you go again, ranting about things you know nothing about. Are you thick, is something missing between the ears or what. If people of working age move it’s mainly due to work and does NOT mean they are moving to a quality of life, they are finding work to survive, pay the mortgage or rent, feed and clothe the children, trying to make ends meet and so on.
    I knew quite well who Artur was referring to but he had been side tracked by the crap you had been saying which had nothing to do with the quality of life regarding pensioners that are in a sound financial position and what i stated to him is the fact of life.

    One of my quotes to Artur which you could not follow.

    “No doubt if the same situation regarding work etc occurred in Spain you and your family would still be in Marbella”.

    Artur moving to London was for work, not quality of life.

    Not sure if you follow the news or read the papers about pensioners in the UK that are not in a financial position i had been referring to and have no means of a better life but are stuck and struggling which you completely seem to have missed the point i had been making.

    I’m not so sure you have a “thriving” business by the sound of your rhetoric but merely surviving and perhaps stuck in a property you can’t unload but please (will say it again) refrain by bringing your woes to this site and proclaim the merits of living in Spain.

    Keep to the subject of “quality of life” first and foremost and if you wish to vent your anger on other subjects then do so but please don’t waste peoples time in coming out with a load of crap. Period.

    Didn’t know you were or had been a teacher until my new found friend MR STEVENS happened to mention the fact. God help us if teachers such as yourself were allowed to teach young children, appear you gave it up. Why did you come to Spain?, could you please explain so as i can fathom what’s between the ears.

    About to make a list of what to do today and for the rest of the coming weekend, there is so much to do, don’t know where to start. I suppose that could be classed as part of the “quality of life”. Dream on mate.

  238. Ad Hominem Stevens, do tell us all how people can just “live where they want to live?” They can’t; people can only live somewhere if a range of pre-conditions are met.

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black – what about all your insults above? You can dish it out Stevens, but you can’t take it back lol.

  239. I thought Mr Roger Stevens was not on this thread anymore. Yaya, thanks for not using that phrase, I could not read to that garbled one to the end but I have read your other posts where you speak English. I think Fred has said many a time that Spain is only good to retire to or if you are financially secure. You are just repeating what we have all said before on that point, on this very thread I believe. Your language is very negative towards Artur, if his Wife leaves that job in London she will find another within a few weeks in London. Companies are trying to keep hold of staff in London as opportunities are everywhere for the right people. He will also have a job as well. There are so many jobs in London it is hard to fill them, just look on totaljobs website. I am not talking about sandwich makers of course, but there are plenty of those but on £7 an hour you will have to live 10 to a room. Try getting a decent job in Spain, almost impossible I would think. You should be more positive like me, it will give you a better perspective on life. If people have all the facts then at least they move to Spain knowledgeable and I wish Spain would be a better place to live as I could get shot of one or two properties then, not bad for a sponger! The only chance Spain has got of property prices going up is when all the other Major economies of Europe are booming in many years to come and when the million plus empty units have been shifted. Asking the Spanish politicians and lawyers to change their ways is not going to happen in the next 10 to 20 years, if ever, you will be long gone by then and I will probably have the same opinion of Spain, I hope I am wrong though Good luck Artur, plenty of things to do here in London and plenty of opportunity. You will feel much better and feel like your life is moving forward which is important when you are of a working age. Yaya, we all have different opinions so keep posting but attacking people for not having the same views does not make good reading, for some you will be right, others I will be right but they have a balanced view.

  240. Fred,

    Not sure where you got that quote you listed in the inverted commas. Not me, but as it is written in my list it goes to show you don’t understand what you read.

    I suppose Mr Stevens is correct when he say:-

    ‘Attacking Fred’, you actually read only what you want to, then twist everyone’s words whilst insulting people as much as you can. Always feel better after though do you?

    Oh well, back to my list.

  242. Roger, Stevens, Caccia: Whichever persona rules at present.
    Just how financially secure will “your” pensioners need to be when they go Ga Ga and need to throw themselves on the tender mercies of the Spanish state? The “list” won’t be much use then.

  243. Reap,

    I have not read anywhere to which Fred was referring to Spain is only good to retire to if you are financially secure. Perhaps you got muddled up with what i had been saying, but pray tell me why is only good to retire to and could you direct me to where Fred and perhaps yourself have repeatedly said this, perhaps i have missed it.

    But basically my first response was referring to Fred’s complaint about the Spanish wishing to know what property one has outside Spain and if you care to take the time and look back i did explain why, it was not property it was assets and property is asset. Please don’t let me go through all this again or is your mind set like Fred’s.

    i think your stance has altered slightly seeing as you would return to Spain and purchase one or two properties and hopefully try to make a few quick bucks, can’t be all that bad afterall can it.

    As for Artur i was only explaining what can happen to a signed contract of employment. It has happened to friends of mine in very high position jobs so i know what i’m talking about, have you not known this to happen, if not you must have been mixing with people that just get the SACK.

    Please do not be like Fred it’s very becoming and shows your intelligence is lacking.

  244. I do not want to get involved in an argument on here but just to clarify things and stop people misintpreting what I am trying to write. Us moving for work is to try and gain a quality of life, if that makes sense? How can anyone do anything without work?!

    Spain did not really permit us to live a proper life as without an income we can do nothing, afford nothing. We could not even get a bank loan. At least in the UK we have some prospects and we would try and build a life – a quality life – if all goes well there. We are hopeful of getting a small mortgage too, something that we could never have got in Spain. If the UK does not work out it will be back to Norway..

  245. I would like to add that property prices in Andalucia are still falling year on year (apart from a few areas), and the UK economy is recovering faster than expected and London and environs property is booming, transaction costs are way lower than in Spain and there ain’t over 2 million properties for sale either, so jolly old Blighty doing pretty well for many. Been quite a mild Autumn too, heating on occasionally a month later than last year.

    Another home bulldozed the other day in Spain (Alhaurin el Grande) this time Spanish owned, not heard of this happening in the UK! People, if you do buy in Spain don’t forget 11% costs, and try and find an honest lawyer/agent,developer to ensure all is legal.

    It is sunny in Spain though and Rioja gran Riserva and Serano are good.

  246. yaya, I said I would like to get shot of one or two not buy another one or two, no wonder you are getitng a bit mixed up! That was funny, have you been down the bar. I have said all along that Spain is a lifestyle choice on this thread, and on other threads I have said that it is no good to look for a job there, you have to be financially secure, retired or not. There are too many other places that are easier to make money or set up a business than Spain. I don’t think you have to live in Spain to even know that, that is the reputation they have. If you are self-employed over there you have to pay over €200 a month before you even get going, if you earn a penny or not, I don’t know what the exact figure is. I can see why people live there, it is cheaper than the UK for housing, rent your place in old blighty, do the maths and it is all roses for most of them, apart from the few that get their houses knocked down. If you are happy with your feet up, not doing a lot other than a round of golf, going to the bar, bit of sun then I can see why people like it, that is the ideal life for most but I think many can go a bit far with the excess. If you have to deal with the mayors and the politicians, lawyers then it will give you a headache, that is when I had enough and left. I went to the water Company three years ago to ask them to change something over to make my water cheaper, this has still not been done, I could go on, telefonica, cars, corrupt Town Halls, electric Companies, corrupt lawyers, the list is endless. It is just like being in fawlty towers, my Wife and kids watch that box set every two years or so when they are in Spain and all you can here is them howling with laughter. It makes a lot of sense when you have lived there.

  247. Artur has validated what I have been saying all along, so thanks for posting to clarify, Artur. At least we both have enough intelligence to know that quality of life, anywhere, is dependent on many different things and is not automatically in existence in specific countries. The only things twisted on this thread are the minds of Ad Hominem Stevens and his multiple personas lol. Wow, what a nutjob. Over and out.

  248. Mike,

    Have they suddenly done away with stamp duty in England, news to me if they have.

    Do they not have illegal building in Britain, only the last few year building permission was extending but a certain amount of illegal building carried on, so again, new to me, perhaps not on the scale as in Spain but that was the greed of the Banks lending builders money. I recall many years ago when i had a small building company and was having lunch with my bank manager. At that particular time there were many builders going bankrupt. “Tell me” he said, “Why are all these builders going down the drain”. My reply was, “Blame the banks”. One can pick faults with many things in a country that they reside in and know doubt you could pick faults in the UK, i can. But stop and think for a moment, what caused the big build in Spain. This did not occur prior to the availability of easy money, land and property were cheap and the same scenario could possibly occur in the UK. Prices have also increased there due to the amount of money now available for properties up to £500K. There has been this sudden demand for property at estate agents, (saw it on the news this morning) and know doubt we will see a steady increase of repossessions once the mortgages start reaching the 7 year period when interest on the mortgages will increase dramatically. The previous and current repossessions are still being felt by hundreds of people and it’s just a political ploy to gain votes. Surely the government had seen the problem that occurred in Spain.

    Basically all these current mails on this site was an answer i made to Fred who seemed to be upset that the government wanted to know what property a foreign resident had, (not only the Brits but, all foreigners and lets face it a lot of fiddling went on in not declaring rented property). I merely replied that they were not asking what property one had but were asking what ASSETS one had over €50K and property is part of one’s asset and said if you have no property then there is nothing to worry about and during further correspondence i happen to mention that for a pensioner that is financially secure life is better than living in the UK and that is the reason they come to Spain for a better quality of life..

    Well this started a chain reaction by various people that suddenly introduced problems of no work in Spain, people stuck with unsold villas or flats, children to bring up and so on.

    When i purchased my first house in the UK and after paying the deposit, 25% of your wages had to cover the monthly mortgage repayment. That was basic wage without overtime or any earning the wife introduced due to the possibility of her becoming pregnant and giving up working. Never heard of repossessions in those days because Building Society were pretty strict in knowing you could afford to repay. Banks in those day were never in the mortgage business like today.

    You can easily look back on the mail and see what all this was about.

  251. Mike, Fred and most that deride Spain.

    I can now see where people may have miss-read my point of view due to them still working for a living. Mike stuck with property that he cannot shift. Fred concerned about the disclosure of his assets and people that are concerned about all the bad things in Spain.

    The problem is they have not yet reached the position of not getting up in the morning.

    I don’t think i have read anything from a financially secured pensioner living over here on this site. Can anyone of you direct me to a section on this link that indicates such a person, i would be pleased to hear their response.

    In all the years i have lived here in Spain i have NEVER had any of the problems that have been mentioned on this site. Water, Gas, Electric, Telephone, Internet, Sky, cars, police, council you name it, washing machine and fridge break down, i’ve never had a problem with any of the mentioned items. Have you thought it must be you lot that seem to create these problems. If i need certain advice where the other party does not speak English and my Spanish is not up to it i employ a translator, especially if it’s at a hospital or doctor. That is the normal and proper way of conducting and living life, in fact none of my friend have those problems. .

    Don’t know where you lot come from.