29 Feb, 2016 @ 10:18
1 min read

British people will not be able to live in Spain if the UK exits EU, minister claims

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Brexit(2)BRITISH people will not be able to live in Spain if the UK exits the EU, a minister has claimed. 

David Lidington, UK’s Europe minister, warned that a Brexit would lead to a ‘decade of economic chaos’.

He claimed that ‘everything we take for granted’ including free movement between European countries will be ‘in jeopardy’.


“Everything we take for granted about access to the single market – trade taking place without customs checks or paperwork at national frontiers, the right of British citizens to go and live in Spain or France – those would all be up in the air. It is massive. It is massive what is at risk,” he said.

“Trade deals between the EU and other countries and bilateral trade deals of any type normally take six, seven, eight years and counting.”

An EU referendum is set to take place on June 23.


Rob Horgan

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  1. I think that there is plenty at risk for us expats if the UK leaves Europe. Since this is an important subject, we need to have some idea what could happen, but so far, there hasn’t been much said. This, maybe, because we simply don’t matter in political terms, having no voice, no representation and no champions.
    The Spanish, bolstered by (improbable) figures from their statists agency the INE, think there are 270,000 Brits living in Spain – not so dissimilar from the supposed number of Spaniards in the UK (even if the Spanish are working/studying while us lot generally speaking are here in a less demanding capacity). If the UK, post Brexit, were to lay any controls on the Spaniards there, then we would expect similar controls here – maybe work-permits and visas and convertible bank accounts. Maybe problems with health coverage. So, while the vote may come from the UK, the reaction towards the Brits in Spain will come from Madrid. This, again, could vary according to which coalition or party eventually takes power here.

  2. If Lidington says that all the British in Spain will be deported because the UK would be no longer in the EU, does he accept that all the 3 million EU passport holders will also be sent back to their countries from the UK? Or do MP’s cleaners, chauffeurs and gardeners fall into a privileged capacity?

  3. David Lidington is speaking absolute crap and is intentionally scare-mongering. Mr David Lidington – the UK’s Europe minister is very scared he is going to lose his gravy train job. He is a complete waste of oxygen.

  4. Project Fear from a real prat. Everything he says is a lie or so distorted that it amounts to the same thing. If klootzaken like this knew that their tongue would be cut out for lying, there would be the wonderful sound of silence.

    So no Americans/New Zealanders/Canadians/Russians etc. etc. live in Spain/France/Italy – hey Chas – your not real, you don’t live in Spain.

  5. People owned properties in Spain before the EEC/EU existed and people travelled around Europe before the EEC/EU existed. It is true that no one knows how a Brexit will fully affect British expats, but freedom of movement is unlikely to be disallowed. Mr Lidington might have a point about new expatriates moving to Spain, but existing residents should be ok. I expect that paperwork and taxes and some economic entitlements will change, however. Mr Lidington should back up his claims with some evidence otherwise his comments are scaremongering.

  6. It is as plain as a pikestaff that British homeowners in Spain will be forced to exit if GB leaves the EU.
    The price of their property will collapse, and they will be deported. Those of you who believe otherwise and claim that Liddington is talking rubbish are in denial. He knows EXACTLY what the exit would entail.
    The argument of non-EU nationals living in Spain is irrelevant – they had to make special paperwork application to live there as they are non-EU Citizens, so they won’t be affected.
    All one can hope for is that the exit doesn’t happen. However, according to a recent poll in the UK, the UK Public are 86% certain of an exit.

    • Melvyn, the euro has been rising against the pound so a sale in Spain now will result in a higher price for the seller (assuming one is moving funds back to the UK). Btw, you can’t be in denial of something that you don’t know lol. It is true that there is uncertainty, but that is not the same as being in denial as that requires complete knowledge of the possible outcome, and that we do not have.

    • Don’t know where you get your facts from. Deported my Foot. If and on IF that were to happen then I will be the first in line to claim my lovely big house, jumping the queue of everyone who has been on the housing list for years, I would be claiming all the state benefits that I could and get my Winter fuel allowance just like all those immigrants from all over the world already get. Us Brits abroad save your government an absolute fortune they would never cope if we all had to return that is why it will never happen Spain need our money too so it would not be in their interest either. This is all scaremongering not funny for those who know no different.

  7. All the Brits living “under the radar” and living with one foot in Spain and one in the UK will probably have to leave, but legal residents will be okay. If you’re not a resident, get your residency now before the s hit hits the fan is my advice. I suspect the major budget airlines will be forced to either pull out, and flight prices will be astronomical too. As before.

  8. I doubt that people who are already resident in Spain would be affected but it might well be a different matter for new entrants.

    Tiger Lily, why would the Spanish authorities want to restrict the amount of time that part timers can spend in Spain on extended holidays? Who exactly would be the beneficiary? These people are not getting free healthcare or claiming any benefits (not that there are any benefits in Spain) so why would they want to turn away a group of people who are spending money in their country and not costing them anything?

    Melvyn Singer, why on earth would all British homeowners be deported? The UK would not be able to deport existing residents from other EU member states either but again, it would be a different matter for new entrants.

    The amount of misinformation flying about is frightening. After all this, it will probably be a IN vote anyway.

  9. ‘Melvin Singer’ What a load of codswallop, do you really know what you are talking about. If you have residencia in Spain then you have ‘residencia’. It will not be taken away because of a Brexit. If you live in France then you may be in trouble. The problem in the UK is not the EU immigrants but the spongers that arrive from the other side of the world (Africa, Syria, Afghanistan etc.) & never pay a penny into the system.
    Take for example the Somalian family of 8 that live in a 2 million pound house in London because that is where they decided they wanted to live. This is at us taxpayers expense, since 2005, & they have never worked. If i wanted to claim anything i would get the basic of £49 per week. A so called asylum seeker should always be housed in their own continent, not on the other side of the world just because another country is run properly.

    • Sadly, we don’t have ‘residencia’, and haven’t since around 2008. Now, with our passport and letter from the police (the Ministry of the Interior), we have the right as a ‘ciudadano comunitario’ to live here in Spain. Of course, if the UK leaves the EU, our status as a ‘European citizen’ will no longer apply.

  10. Lidington is clearly scaremongering with Project Fear lies, he should be pulled up sharp. Google search his Twitter page and send him a broadside & to his mad boss Cameron. Tory ‘in’ party is scraping the barrel and desperate.

    Melvyn are you a Tory propagandist? Illegal immigrants will be deported (or could be) from any country if they are found to have fraudulently entered as far as I know, not those who have legitimately moved, those who own 2nd homes, or taken up residence!

  11. Agreed 100%. This is just scaremongering as part of Cameron’s ‘Project Fear’ in order to effect a majority ‘Remain’ vote on June 23rd.

    Even though I’m resident in Spain, registered with Social Security and enjoy life here, I’ve also registered for my postal vote in order to vote ‘Leave’ the undemocratic EU.

  12. I am not a Tory propogandist or talking codswallop! I specialise in immigration law and cross-border legislation. Fred mentions that the Euro is rising against the Pound. It is more a matter of the Pound sinking (and against other major currencies) as currency traders fully expect the exit and have marked the Pound down accordingly. Remember what happened when GB left the ERM? While Euros converted to Pounds will reap higher returns, the fact remains that the property prices themselves will most likely fall by a larger sum. A leading firm of international Estate Agents reported on UK TV last week that exPats selling houses and apartments in Spain after an exit could expect to receive 50% or less of current prices. This is far more of a drop than the difference earned in the currency rate. I find in incredible that exPats always bury their heads in the sand and refuse to believe the inevitable, be it denial or not.

    • Melvyn, show us your company website that proves you are an expert on immigration. Otherwise, your claims are meaningless hearsay you will appreciate. If Brexit occurs and the British can no longer move to Spain, that could affect demand and it would effect house prices in Spain, agreed, but where is the evidence that post-Brexit, no one is allowed can move to Spain, or elsewhere in Europe for that matter? Melvyn, you are not a fortune teller; you don’t know what the inevitable is, do you?

  13. This is scaremongering at its very worst, and Lidlington, (and the government for allowing it) should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. As Brian said, would this mean that the 3million plus EU passport holders be deported from the UK. No, of course not. Disgusting and stupid

  14. Big Dave,
    this is obviously a luxioury debate. Always when the Conservatives are ruling Great Britain, then they distract the worlds attention from humanitarian disasters by petty self-centered actions. This was the case with the Suez Channel occupation in 1956 while the democratic uprising in Hungary was strangled by soviet Union tanks.
    Now David Cameron has started Brexit talks with the EU about petty exceptions for the UK while a humanitarian disaster is coming up in Greece and while the EU is not able to handle the refugee crisis in a humanitarian way.
    As long as we Europeans are able to run and pay our holiday homes in foreign countries we should be able to pay for refugees fleeing from the hell at Aleppo and to offer to them a fair distribution across all 28 European countries.
    David Cameron better should support securing the Greece (and Libyan) borders by NATO forces and the EU talks with Turkey to settle a controlled regime for the refugees who wish to migrate to Europe instead of annoying the EU by demands for keeping privileges for London banks inside the EU.

    • A cogent argument Wolfgang. This whole “Brexit” thing is the classic “dead cat on the table”. It would not have got to this stage if Cameron had the cojones to ignore the Farage mob in the first place. But of course, as you say, it suits his agenda by keeping the real emergency sidelined.
      Don’t be surprised when the roof falls in on you though, there are many “Big Daves” in Little England.

  15. How can we leave Europe when in reality Britain has never been a part of Europe .If Britain was a part of Europe we would have adopted the Euro , got right in the middle of Europe acted correctly with our EU compatriots and not just cherry picked the bits we liked .Europe and its progressive ideas is around a generation to early for most brits . We need to formally excuse ourselves rebuild our economy and maybe when our kids are older join in properly like Germany and France .

  16. I am not interested what the in campaign has to say, because if the UK votes to stay in things will continue as they are. I am far more interested in what the out campaigners have to say regarding our status, health care, taxes etc should the UK vote to leave. So far I have heard nothing and given that Ian Duncan Smith is one of the leading members of the out campaign I don’t think he will have much sympathy for us considering the devious lengths he went to in removing the winter fuel allowance. IDS will lie through his teeth to secure his position on the plush green leather seats of the house of commons. Odious creature.

  17. Stefanjo, don’t worry, I will not be surprised if we happen to see a new coalition between President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Nigel Farage end of this year. With London Stock Exchange as a subdivision of NYSE. When there is time to warmly welcome the new EU member state of Scotland. I am confident that in case of a Brexit Spain will tolerate all British home owners for humanitarian reasons. Those who fear they would not be welcome, are invited to vote against a Brexit.

    • Dammit Wolfgang. How am I going to get that image of Trump and Farage out of my head now?
      I’ll have to invent a tartan for my family and move to Bonny Scotland.

  18. With a Brexit, there may be plenty of British-owned homes on the market; however, if Trump wins across the pond, there will be plenty of new buyers over here.

  19. Lenox, thank you for your explanation. Now I beter understand why Donald Trump is applying for presidency: Your Scenario is perfect for a real estate tycoon like Donald Trump! This man is not interested in the presidential job, but he wants to create his own special situation to become even richer. Do we not call this the “primacy of economics over politics”?

    • That will be down to the British. If they vote ‘Brexit’, it’s apparently because they don’t want so many foreigners in their country (stealing their jobs and their women…). They apparently don’t like the Poles and Bulgarians and so on… so may want to throw all the Europeans out. Madrid, Bonn, Paris and Sofia would no doubt retaliate. An improbable forecast? Probably.
      But what if the British ask for work permits, or visas, or stricter tax controls of their ex-EU foreigners? What then.

  20. You won’t “have to” leave Spain, but you will have to apply for visas and work permits and buy private health insurance. Some people will be unwilling to do this and thus will have to leave.
    Bon voyage !

  21. Apart from a couple of rational people, the stupidity, the fear and the downright lies of so many Brits makes them a laughing stock and it shows on this thread. How often do Brits mouth an uninformed opinion as fact – far too often.

    When a thread comes up like this I always let my mates in the Netherlands and Germany know – so they can have a good laugh.

    Melvyn Singer the only qualification you have is in b/s.

    Tim – you need to get your brain in gear and buy an Atlas – France and Spain are not only next door to each other they are both in the EU – what part of this don’t you understand.

    Chas – as an American, could you please share with us all exactly what you had to do, to live legally in Spain. As a non EU national, after a Brexit, it is exactly what Brits would have to do as well.

    Ed – it seems as if your input is at or close to the truth. The biggest threat for Brits is the cost of healthcare. Sadly most Brits have never lived healthy lives or eaten sensibly so have lots of health problems or will have with advancing years. Ed, it’s not that lots of Brits are unwilling to pay for PHI, it’s simply that they won’t be able to pay.

    For those who have difficulty, it’s time to get your brains in gear – EU countries sell more to the UK than we sell to the EU – is that simple enough. If you think that they are going to risk losing their markets by bullying us, this is what will happen. Just sticking to food and drink, we can destroy the economies of Murcia and Andalucia. We can cause the collapse of many Dutch and Danish farmers and collapse at least 50% of the Dutch greenhouse businesses – by buying elsewhere. Already there is far too much production of wine in Europe. Did all know that the EU buys up lots of cheap wine and distills industrial alcohol from it, otherwise lots of small Italian,French and Spanish growers would collapse. If we stop buying European wine lots and lots of vineyards will go bust. No problem for the grande crus across France and Italy but for the rest, a huge problem that cannot be solved looking for new markets – there is wine production glut across the world.

    If any country starts to bully expats then immediately we can repatriate over 6 million EU citizens. That means the collapse of most East European countries and remember the EU would have lost it’s second biggest contributor. So who’s going to pick up the tab – don’t ask the Dutch they are already livid at what they have to pay in.

    We will of course take back our fishing grounds, sadly looted by Spanish and Greek fishermen. That alone will put thousands of them out of work – more social security to find.

    The French have to be very careful as in London alone there are over 500,000 French . If they have to go home and if the French and Spanish decide to harass expats, most of whom are retired, to leave, this will tip both countries into long term economic depression.

    There are many who say that not only is the Euro doomed but also the EU and of course from what I have seen of both the French and Spanish mentality, while both have admirable aspects there is also a lot of hubris and denial syndrome and I’m sure unfortunately that this will surface if and when there is a Brexit.

    I believe that across Europe there are many decent people who know that a Brexit will make it much easier to destroy the present totally corrupt and undemocratic gravy train for the few that is the EU and to then create something totally different that actually serves the ordinary people and not the few who only serve big business.

    That is what terrifies the scum in Brussels. Unlike the cowardly Celts and Aryans on the island, mainlanders are willing and able to take to the streets to enforce their views. It won’t be easy and there will almost certainly be bloodshed because the gravy trainers will not go easily and there are always uniformed goons ready to do their bidding but there will be change.

    We were lucky in Spain because we did’nt buy or build our own home there, so it was easy for us to leave. Having damaged my back after only 6 months here, I have not been able to build our home and I would’nt ever buy a French built house, only one I have designed myself and hire Galician friends to do the work. So if things get very anti-British we will simply decamp back to the island, either the North or Scotland.

    Already in both Spain and France there are many finding it hard to make ends meet and have bought properties that here in France, the French were only too happy to get rid of. If you don’t have a house in the right area, it is impossible to sell now, let alone with a Brexit.

    So many Brits did no research, did’nt speak the language, blindly trusted professionals to be honest and for them it will be a huge, if not insurmountable problem to leave.

    Even if there is no Brexit, Europe as a whole has huge problems to deal with. Wolfgang, Merkel opened her mouth without any consultation with other Europeans, that was arrogant, she’s your problem and you need to deal with her. You cannot dictate to other Europeans what they must do. The whole of Eastern Europe is Catholic and has encouraged large families for whom there is too little work, that’s their problem not ours. they are also rabidly nationalistic and anti-Semitic. They will do nothing to help the migrants and I’m sure that if they did’nt face losing huge EU handouts, none more so than Poland, they would be killing those refugees and economic migrants. They do not have a modern mindset – think Yugoslavia and the centuries old hatred of the Serbs and Croats, one lot, the Serbs fanatically Red Fascists and the Croats proud Blackshirts.

    Why did’nt the EU immediately send armies to stop the mas murder and mass rape that was going on – just where was the EU – completely dis-united.

    The first act of a real European Community should have been the introduction of a common unifying language – Esperanto existed and still does – you cannot have united countries without a uniting language. Each country would have taught it’s children their own national language and Esperanto, so simple and so easy for Europeans to work and holiday in each others countries – but not in the interests of big business.

    The USA would not be in existence without this. It now has 2 languages – English and Spanish,Trump the geek, who inherited $100 million does’nt like this, so the USA can expect lots of problems too if he is elected.

    At it’s inception there should have been only one form of election, pure simple P/R. Why were’nt P/R and a unifying language instituted because the EU was set up to facilitate the profits of big business and nothing else. If you believe it was to stop Europeans killing each other then you are really stupid and believe that War is Peace and Peace is War.

  22. To get a Spanish ‘non-lucrative’ residency visa, good for one year, with possible renewal for another four. (Work visa or study visas requirements are altogether different). Prior to Schengen, I needed only to register at the local police to get an extension. Visa renewal is much easier, is good for two years and is accomplished from Spain.
    The ‘non-lucrative’ residency visa application must be made from the pertaining Consulate in your country of citizenship. In my case it was Chicago.
    All applicants must be present at the Consulate appointment. Appointments are made on-line only. No walk-ins or telephones. Telephones are never, ever answered.
    Appointments are made in ten minute intervals, but all appointments will run well over this time allotment. No one is concerned. But expect to wait well beyond your appointment time.

    The Spanish Consulate in Chicago required the following documentation in 2014, most with a bona fide translation, though for some documents, ie, financial statement, translations may not be necessary. Some have had success with an on-line translation service such as . Official translation services can be very expensive and in the end, may not be necessary. I was surprised the Consular clerk handed back many photo copies and translations: I had spend several hundred dollars on these!

    You will need:
    1) Original passport for each applicant.
    2) One passport photo for each applicant.
    3) Photo copies of passport page(s) containing picture and passport details (number, expiration, date of birth, address, etc.)
    4) Application form from Spanish Consulate or their web site.
    5) Proof of sufficient income – one per family – defined as a minimum of €2,130/month plus €532/month for spouse and each dependent. A family of 4 would require €3,726/month. An official bank or investment house statement and probably a tax return serves as evidence.
    6) State police criminal background check for each adult applicant with Apostille stamp (State’s official seal proving that the police background check is official. (I don’t know what Apostille is in UK.)
    7) Medical certificate for each applicant. The Consulate provides the necessary Spanish language. The letter must be on proper physician/clinic letterhead, signed by a medical doctor. My physician stamped across the signature, a nice official touch. The letter MUST be in both Spanish and English.
    8) Proof of insurance for catastrophic illness that includes medical evacuation.
    9) Proof of accommodation for family. In my case I own property in Spain, and needed to provide a copy of the escritura (title), empadronamiento in pertaining ayuntamiento of my property and NIE.
    If you don’t own, you will need a copy of a rental contract from a landlord in Spain.
    I already had the NIE and empadronamiento as these are necessary for house ownership. But the empadramiento must be current.
    If you don’t have the NIE and current empadrimiento, you will get them as part of your successful residency visa application, but this adds several weeks on to the process.
    10) Form EX-1 for each applicant, already in Spanish, so no translation is necessary.
    11) Form 790 Code 052, an Initial Residence Authorization for each applicant also already in Spanish.
    12) Marriage License for each couple, translated into Spanish. It was possible for me to get original duplicates at our county registry. Needs Apostille as well.
    13) Birth certificate for each dependent. Needs Apostille.
    14) Then, scheduled appointment, only possible on-line. They do not accept any telephone calls for anything.
    15) Letter of Intent of why you want to move to Spain. In my case it was because of my property which we are reforesting. The important thing here is that your statement does not suggest that you are going to do a self organized business, academic research (you need a permit to do that) or anything else accept to live and spend money in Spain. Put some thought into this: Spain is not North America or UK, and their expectations are more narrowly defined. I know people who have successfully written ‘so our children could attend school, learn Spanish, and we can enjoy the culture’ – not to live cheaply, drink a lot, grift, work illegally, get welfare and medical benefits.

    The Consulate indicated requirements of original plus one copy for each document, with each translated into Spanish by a bona fide translator. This seems to vary with Consular offices and linguistic abilities of those who process forms.
    Original documents such as Marriage Certificates, passport, etc, will be returned after copies are verified by visa officials in Spain.

    Be very, very polite and clear. In Chicago only one person of four had a barely adequate grasp of English. Best to take along a fully bilingual person to help. Moreover, only one of the four people knew *exactly* which documents, in which form, were required. This process will be aggravating not only for linguistic reasons, but also because the personnel don’t appear to be adequately trained. I suspect that political connections are more valuable than training to get an overseas post in a Spanish Consulate. Expect more than one visit.

    In anywhere between 8 and 12 weeks, you will be notified to come collect your visa and original documents. After that, in Spain you must go within thirty days of your visa start date to the pertaining immigration department of the Ministerio de Extranjeros, located in a major city in your region. Go early, as there is likely a line in this first-come, first-served system. I found the personnel very polite, efficient and helpful. Again, be very calm and polite. I was fortunate to have an impeccably mannered totally bi-lingual 19 year old as a translator who charmed the woman who processed my papers. Here you must pay fees directly to a bank. So go early to get it done before the bank closes.

    You also will be finger-printed. There were a few grim-faced national police watching operations, and many north African, Middle-Eastern and South American people waiting with me.

    Driver’s license: Spanish law requires a Spanish license for non EU people who are in the country for more than 6 months. EU residents and UK people probably have different requirements. I have an American Automobile Association translation of my State driver’s license. As long as I am not in Spain more than 6 months, this serves well, though some Guardia Civil don’t know the rules, and assum that if you have a car matriculated in Spain and a property, you must be a resident. My information comes from a friend who owns a large Spanish Driving School who inquired at the pertaining CA office.

    So quit whingeing and get prepared to join the rest of us. Its intrutional, expensive and aggravating, but that’s the current system. One positive attribute might be to refuse entry to some of the UK and other shady characters, though I may be optimistic.

      • A detailed explanation of the likely Spanish residency application process for non-EU citizens, such as Brits, if there is a BREXIT based on the American experience.

        I did this on Stuart Crawford’s request:
        “Chas – as an American, could you please share with us all exactly what you had to do, to live legally in Spain. As a non EU national, after a Brexit, it is exactly what Brits would have to do as well.”
        Thanks for your appreciative words. Others may find it useful.

        • Chas, I recall that the USA did not ratify the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, which may have a bearing on the acquired rights of British expatriates in Spain. I take it you don’t definitively know what the future requirements will be, and thus are making a guess? Would that be a fair statement?

          • If there is a BREXIT, I am supposing that requirements for Brits could be closer to those for Americans. What I stated above is currently correct for Americans.

  23. Stuart, thank you for not mentioning that the initial intention of forming the EU was to control Germanys heavy industry in order to forever prevent Germany from starting another world war. If the UK now eventually decides to put down its guard position inside the EU, what will be the benefit for the UK?
    Stuart, it isn’t that easy with the refugees. Some French have already threatend that in the case of a Brexit they will no longer prevent refugees in Calais to enter Great Britain. The UK and Germany are the only attractive European addresses for the refugees (after Sweden and Austria being fed up). The traffickers will always find ways to transport their clients into Germany and into the UK. Last week we have seen the first Syrian refugees entering into Germany via Poland! Think of how many will soon come from Libya where the UK military action has created a failed state while Germany stood absent. Therefor it would be smarter for the UK not to boycott any joint refugee politics within the EU.

    Chas, thank you for your detailed report. I own a property in South-Korea which is not known to be a EU member state. To buy and run my property in Korea is much easier than what you reported about your bureaucratic experience with Spain. There even exists a Germantown (Dogilmaul) at the southern coast of Korea.

  24. Chas,
    thanks for the detailed information on entry requirements for a non EU person. Sadly what so many Brits refuse to recognise is that other countries don’t have a laissez faire attitude to regulation. That is why it is so easy for fraudsters to operate in the UK. Most Brits have a totally irrational attitude to ID cards. The legal parasites make lots of money in fraud cases that would never happen if an ID card had to be produced for any kind of financial transaction and was checked against a national data base.

    It used to be the case that if a Dutchman moved from one place to another in the Netherlands he had to register with the police, what’s wrong with that if you are an honest man or woman.

    There were lots of scum British women who made lots of money with multiple marriages to foreigners who wanted to obtain UK citizenship. We got married in France last year and I can say with certainty this would be totally impossible in France and I’ll bet it’s the same in most EU countries.

    Wolfgang I never fell for the b/s argument about Germany. The reparations which the French demanded after WW1 was all about the most humiliating defeat of the French trapped in Sedan and in danger of starving to death in 1870. So many French and Germans have no idea at all where the mutual animosity between the French and the Germans started. So many French have no idea that the Franks were Aryans who took over the Celtic lands of Gaul when the Roman empire collapsed.

    It was the Franks with their two Roman trained leaders who massacred 3 Roman legions in the forests, that started the Roman collapse and this led to bitter rivalry between the Franks and the Alemanii, who the Franks slaughtered in a famous battle and so began the enmity.

    There is absolutely no unity within the EU militarily and I can’t see there ever will be. NATO is a concept dreamed up by the Americans to protect American commercial interests and to create a battlefield scenario in Europe rather than America.

    Just as the CIA deliberately caused the destruction of a democratically elected Marxist government in Chile with all the torture and mass murder that followed and the terrible Contras and extreme right wing death squads all over Central America. It was the CIA that pumped in billions of $ to fund the extreme right wing groups in the Ukraine and their ongoing campaign to demonise Putin and Russia. They fomented the whole situation in Syria and we all know what happened in Iraq. They and the British MI6 did the same in Libya.

    By the UK leaving the EU it will act like amphetamine for the public schoolboys who still rule the UK and who disappeared up the American rectum in 1945. They will always do America’s bidding. de Gaulle recognised this and he was right to keep the British out of Europe. Sadly the vast majority of Brits are reduced to moaning but being cowardly will not of this moment think of direct action to save their country from a return to 19th century conditions.

    Conditions will deteriorate further if we leave the EU and only then will the mass of Brits MAYBE find some courage, this will never happen while we are still in the EU.

    No honest European can say that the present structure and mentality of the Brussels EU machine acts in the interests of the vast majority of Europeans, it plainly does’nt. If we leave it will almost immediately have huge financial problems. Let it collapse and maybe something much better can be created.

    Immigration – it is very hard for Germany to control immigration but very easy for the UK – we are surrounded by sea. First the Brexit, then the public school scum will be unable to stop their greed and control syndromes, then maybe real civil unrest and very possibly civil war, the last one was not real, simply a battle between the nobility and the gentry. The violence will send a lot of foreigners scurrying for home. When this unrest/civil war is finished if successful then that class will have been destroyed. That is when the yoke of the Americans will be discarded and we can begin to put our country and society back together.

    How Wolfgang, can we have the Irish/Luxemburgers/Dutch making money as tax havens, literally stealing from other EU countries. Do you really think that the EU is going to stop these abuses and make it a level playing field – of course not.

    In the meantime the EU will have collapsed and even if it does’nt, Europeans will have to accept a much lower standard of consumerism, as power will have shifted to the East. many Europeans cannot accept this but it will become fact within a decade.

    Germany/Austria’s problem will be the mentally unchanged East European countries that border them. Germany has the wonderful possibility with it’s very low birthrate to change the structure of society but it is being thrown away with mass immigration that suits only the very rich. The problem with modern capitalism is that most of the wealth is controlled by so few who employ armies of parasites that simply are excess to requirements – immigration is not the answer, especially with robotisation already showing that there are far too many bipeds.

    It’s a great shame that ordinary Germans are not taking control and showing the way for all industrial/post industrial societies. If there is no population control then Islam will by sheer weight of numbers take control of western societies – it is a simple numbers game and cannot be refuted. Germans/French/Brits are not extreme rightwing nutcases but people who want to maintain their individual cultures.

    I personally feel outraged when I see women covered from head to foot in traditional Middle Eastern clothing whilst the men can dress as they want. I am further outraged when I see little girls sent to Pakistan to marry old men. I am outraged that the German police knowingly let German women be sexually abused by hundreds of Islamic men. I am outraged that in the UK the multi-cultural PC crowd turned a blind eye to terrible crimes against white girls that has gone on for decades.

    I don’t believe that problems like this are solved with PC words but with brutal action, if Moslems don’t like having to change or Gypsies to stop being thieves and parasites – they can leave.

    If a truly free referendum was held throughout the EU on such real ongoing problems, the lack of transparency on how the EU operates, the corruption of CAP I know what the ordinary European would have to say and so do you. The elites will never cede control willingly. A Brexit could be the beginning of real democracy in the UK and Europe as a whole.

    • Stuart, reading all your postings, for me it’s not clear whether you are a left wing anarchist, a racist bourgeois or a conspiracy theorist. Please can you give your audience the pleasure to explain the base of your viewpoint?

      Ask Italy and Greece how comfortable they feel with sea-borders. Also, please explain how you got so many people from Pakistan into the UK? Great Britain is no longer living in the glorious times of sail boats. Yes, the UK could opt for the Australian solution, scaring away refugee boats into the open sea. But in this case, why do you think your moral is superior to the moral of those people waering their veil that you don’t like to meet in the UK? Why do you assume the white race is superior to other races? Why people from Asia, Africa and even Eastern Europe have no right to participate in the global welfare? We need the EU to be competitive to upcoming rivals like China, Korea, Japan, Indonesia, India…
      If we fall back to single national states with closed borders, UK as well as Germany will experience the erosion of our position in the global economy and of our social welfare.

      Referring to Germany I am not as pessimistic as you. For the first time we see a small surplus of births over deceaseds. Those figures do not include any input from the recent influx of refugees. Germany during the past 200 years has absorbed many waves with millions of refugees or migrants: the French Huguenots, the Polish cole-miners, the German refugees from World War II, the boat people from Vietnam, the civil war refugees from the Balkans, the German nationals from the former Soviet Union, the German refugees from Eastern Germany, the ‘guest’ workers from Turkey and Korea, the new jewish migrants from Israel. And we have learned our lessons: Regarding the refugees from Irak, Syria and Afghanistan we will not tolerate their accumulation in no-go areas like the French Banlieus. Learning the German language will be mandatory and children will be obliged to attend our public schools. We have the economic power to finance this duty. We will soon regain our expertise in administrative effectiveness too.
      From Cologne we learned that we have to be more rigorous deporting people to their home countries who have no right to stay in Germany. The Cologne mess was not caused be Syrian refugees but by criminals from Tunesia, Algeria and Morocco who are living illegally in Germany. Last week our minister of interior visited those three countries and negotiated that we may send back those individuals living illegally in Germany soon.

  25. The last thing that Spain would want is to lose the British expats, most of them are retired and probable each put approx 14,000 euros into the economy each year. So if you have only 500 British in a in small community that is €7 million gone each year from the local business’s of which all has come from outside the community and would not be replaced annully. If only 30% of that was spent in the local supermarked that would be a loss of over €40,000 a week in trade, causing a loss of jobs to the local Spanish community in the supermarkets, restaurants, bars and any other retail outlet, and that is in a small community. Any action of making it impossible for the expats to live in Spain would bring the country to its knee’s, for any sudden down-turn in income brings a community into rapid recession. The BBC estimates there a 760,000 British residents living in Spain so going on the figure of €14,000 spent each year would cost Spain €10,640,000,000 per annum. Its not so much that its such a huge amount of money for a country the size of Spain, its that it will hit the coastal areas where so much of its income rely’s on tourism and needs to stay healthy.

    • A Brexit will provide new opportunities for Spanish elites. Its a mistake to assume common law, rational thinking on the part of Spanish politicians. A reading of Spanish political history, along with my thirty-five year experience living in Spain and Portugal, has taught me that to assume Spanish politicians and elites will opt for rational or democratic decision-making when confronted with a Brexit is not probable. More likely, the political classes will jiggle immigration policy and apparatus to insure that current elites do not suffer economic effects from the Brexit. Neo-con/neo-liberal practice finds opportunity in crises: corporations will buy up small failing enterprises in expat areas. After all, the wealthy don’t care so much about small shops closing, and service providers will always cozy up to the elites to get their share, as EU and national civil servants have shown. It has long been the case in Spain that foreigners are expected to provide a standard of living for indigenous Spanish – but not actually participate directly unless they have a Spanish senior partner.
      With a Brexit, tax status will change so that Brits here year around are going to pay a good ‘privilege tax’ in forms not yet imagined.
      One should not confuse ‘rationality’ with ‘formalism’. Rational practice is based on evidence and vision; formalism bases practice on an extrapolation from rigid ideology. Aristotle vs Plato. Any one who has had legal dealings in Spain knows this. If a Brexit takes place, yes, Brits will be able to stay, but not without a cost to Brits. And that will provide new opportunities for Spanish elites.

    • The Spanish use their own figures supplied by the INE, which gives an exact number of 283,243 Britons living in Spain. We may all know that this is BS, but the Spanish are fond of their bean-counters at the INE and will use their numbers. The other thing to note is that the big cities where the powerful people live, don’t have an appreciable number of Brits. The small and unimportant towns might, but as said – they are unimportant. We have seen the Spanish approach to Gibraltar (3% unemployment, as versus over 40% in next door La Línea). No one cares. it’s down to politics, not pragmatism.

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