15 Oct, 2012 @ 09:00
1 min read

Property buyers flock to Spain

Spanish property market

BRITONS are taking increasing advantage of a strong pound and rock-bottom property prices to buy second homes in Spain.

The trend for so-called ‘schadenfreude shopping’, where buyers cash in on other’s misfortune, is being fuelled by property discounts of up to 70%.

The pound is now 25% more valuable against the euro than three years ago, when exchange rates were almost on parity.

This, added to the fact there are around a million unsold homes in Spain to ensure supply far outweighs demand, make it an ideal time to buy in Spain.

“Spain is the main bargain area in Europe, the Costa del Sol in particular,” said Charles Weston Baker, head of Savills International.

“Greece and Italy offer some good opportunities, but not nearly as many properties are available because resorts were not as overbuilt so extensively.

“Spain has seen dramatic price falls, not least because banks need to shift distressed stock.

“Consequently, they are offering high loan-to-value mortgages on properties that are discounted by some 70% compared to their 2008 peak.”

He added: “This represents a great opportunity for buyers, who can borrow up to 90% of the purchase price and achieve very substantial returns.”

James Bryce

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  1. Some of this chap’s comments from Savills could mislead people into making foolhardy decisions by investing in overseas and in particular Spanish property whilst all the uncertainty in Spain and the Eurozone lingers on. If Spain reverts back to Peseta one day, (not impossible) then property values are predicted to fall further.

    Some of what he says is just plain daft and typical of an agent who hopes to make big commissions from naive purchasers.

    This is what happens when a property market is totally unregulated, hype and lack of transparency!!

  2. Quite agree @Mike. This article is pure drivel even by Olive Press standards. This is not news but a promotional item for some Estate Agent so ,anybody out there tempted to leap in to the property market here , be very very careful. Remember that the Olive Press is primarily in the entertainment and advertising business NOT news reporting. As such , it has the same levels of journalistic integrity as all the other internet blogs out there , E.G. not very much !

  3. What has surprised me with this article is I think The Olive Press is normally the most realistic honest paper in Spain who generally tell it as it is, and secondly, Savills is an agent you would not normally associate with the run of the mill OTT Spanish Estate Agents. I wonder whether either would care less if unfortunate buyers bought because of this only to regret it later as many have before. Why would The Olive Press make that headline to the article when it’s untrue and from an agent?

    Buyer Beware!

  4. Are you an agent anna, you sound like one?

    You say ‘sun equals demand. Simples’, that’s why there are nearly 2 million unsold homes in Spain then, including aup to a million new builds? LOL

    The only ‘Simples’ will be those who get duped by this agent’s spiel.

    ‘Great long term investment’ LOL again, many Spanish properties are not well built compared to those in other countries.LOL

  5. As ever, agents hyping to earn commission, regardless of the effect of their advice on clients:
    ‘The £ is now 25% more valuable than 3 years ago’. Simply not true. In Oct 2007 the £ bought 1.43 euros-today it buys 1.24 -13% less. In Jan 2009 The £/€ was briefly at its low point of 1.037 so it is now worth just less than 20% more than its very lowest point-it has never been 25% worse than today as claimed. But then who expects an estate agent, even Savills, to tell the truth?
    ‘An ideal time to buy in Spain’ will be after the inevitable euro exit and accompanying devaluation. Until then, the smart money will rent.

  6. Good honest posts from all above apart from Anna.

    Steve, you’re absolutely right about rates, I too remember 1.65 to the £ in the boom, so the £ is still 25% lower which wipes out much of current price drops for Brits.

    Agents right now are frantically trying to re-hype the Spanish property market all for the sake of their commissions, no scruples whatsoever, I said above the Spanish property market is totally unregulated and it’s unsafe to buy now. There’s also a lot of dross for sale they’re trying to shift it to the unwary.

    I agree people should rent until after Spain Spexits the Euro when prices could halve again!

  7. Prices need to come down, way down. When my husband arrived in Almeria in 1960, he bought village houses for $50 apiece. We bought a 120m apt in Torremolinos in ’64 for $12,000. Just saw an article in the NYT on Spanish real estate bargains. A 2 bed apt on the coast was $92,000. A bargain ? NOT !!!

  8. Of course it would be great to live in Spain. That, at least, won’t change short of a strong anti-foreign drive by the authorities.
    Actually, with all of the foreign-owned ‘illegal homes’, pensioners on hose-pipes and generators, drives like the Telegraph’s ‘Spanish Planning Scandal’ (“http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/campaigns/spanishplanningscandal/”), the five year long agony of Helen and Len Prior and many other stories that never make the Spanish press, it’s a wonder than anyone is buying.
    Really, Spain isn’t that bad. Not quite!

  9. The silence from Savills (who put out this spiel) is deafening.

    I emailed Charles Weston Baker and their Ceo and MD, copied in the email to The Olive Press and no-one from Savills has had the courtesy to reply. My email politely pointed out their non disclosure of relevant facts (conveniently left out, nor that we wish to see anyone misled into buying either based on their report nor buying while all the Spanish and Eurozone turmoil was going on.

    As agents, and in the interests of transparency they should reply!

    Buyer Beware!!!

  10. After reading this post I am really surprised that what is happened to Spanish property market.
    Soon i was thinking to relocate to Spain and also thinking to invest in property in Spain, But now i am confused…
    Please response, is this the right time to invest in property in Spain or i should wait some more.

  11. Jimmy, Its a great place to live, but most people expect the property market to go lower for a couple of years yet, so grab a great rental deal, and watch the market once you are here. But if you want miserable weather, over priced property and too many American accents, then do as Fred suggests and head for the Cotswolds…

  12. Oh yes, Estepona, the town that is mired in corruption and whose council is totally bankrupt. At least in the Cotswalds your investment won’t fall through the floor and you won’t lose sleep at night worrying if it will be made retrospectively illegal. There are far more important things than just the weather, as many expat owners have now found out.

  13. Estepona is a great place to live Fred, and the corruption and shortage of funds in most town halls in Spain has no effect on me at all. As you know it is part of life here, and I agree that people who lose sleep over things like that are better to stay where they do not get so anxious. If you have travelled much, you will be aware that corruption is everywhere to greater or lesser degrees. Abuse of power and greed are unfortunate parts of human nature. I am happy to accept that, and get on with enjoying my life here. And even in the UK there were over 10000 mortgage repossessions last year, and in real terms, UK House values are down 30% in 5 years, so many are in negative equity. It really depends on how you choose to look at life…..

  14. I see that ‘Steve/Im all right Jack’ is back.

    Can you believe what this joker says – ‘corruption and shortage of funds in most town halls in spain has no effect on me at all’- what a nasty self centred person he is.

  15. Perhaps Steve can tell us about the 100.000+ illegal homes in the UK? Oh wait, there are none. UK House values down 30% in 5 years? Here in Spain that’s 1 years’ fall. But it’s all ok, it’s all part of Steve’s life.

  16. So stuart is back making judgements based on no knowledge-no surprise there. Perhaps he can tell us all what, in his selfless world, he is doing personally about the corruption and shortage of funds-apart from just moan that is.

    And if Fred thinks there are no illegal homes in the UK then he has his head up his a*s*. Local town planners are having to turn a blind eye to illegal developments in very many cases, as they can not afford to fight the cases, only to be overturned so often by the DoE. Either a jaundiced view of Spain or uninformed about the UK, or both.

    But dont let these glass half empty, moaning minnies put you off enjoying life here in Spain, along with most expats.

  17. Jaundiced view of Spain? lol, you’ve got your head buried in the sand and have obviously not even been reading the OPs and others significant coverage of the planning issues across Spain (not just Andalucia).

    I’m not trying to put people off having a good life here, many do, and good luck to them, but where you fall over is when you accuse people of being “moaning minnies” for talking basic facts.

    Try telling the members of SOHA and AUAN et al that they are moaning minnies, Steve.

  18. The truth is Jimmy, many Brits and others are now housetrapped in Spain because their property prices have crashed.

    If you buy in Spain, even with a discount, your property will have to rise in price by 20% just to break even to cover buying and selling costs, so you will be losing money from day one, very little chance of any profit for years to come.

    Spain has over a million, some say 2 million unsold homes, Banks are reducing prices on their stock and causing the market to fall further,and, if Spain leaves the Euro and adopts the Peseta again prices will fall further against other currencies because Spain will devalue the Peseta.

    Most who talk the market up are either agents and developers, or Brits who can’t sell but want to, but some Brits accept things and make the best of a bad situation.

  19. TRAPPED IN SPAIN.. haha never heard such MISERABLE nonsense!!
    So many negative WHINGING BRITS around! pathetic! Met someone where we live who ‘avoids Brits’ due to apparent ‘back biting’.. and avoids forums… What’s up with people! and Brits abroad!!! like giving people the cold shoulder when out and about instead of smiling and saying hello! it’s not hard…

    …anyhow sorry about all that guys… better get off and try and ENJOY LIFE ITSELF!

  20. Well said Dave. In Sydney the Aussies used to say that they could tell when a plane load of Brits arrived because you could hear the whining above the noise of the engines!

  21. haha good one Steve

    sorry guys – I was in a bad mood yesterday and needed sleep!

    I do feel really sorry for anyone that is mortgaged up to the hilt to buy in Spain and now in negative equity (trapped if they want to leave Spain?… not sure why…). But if anyone retired to Spain and bought property outright, I don’t think there’s much to worry about price wise. Get out there and worry about more important thing like finding the best tapas bar and practicing Spanish with the locals! & get surround yourself with positive people like FRED! LOL (think this is the first time I’ve said ‘lol’ in my life – I won’t do it again)

  22. Like most of you I feel sorry for those genuinely stuck in Spain with negative equity etc but I agree with those on here who say try and learn some Spanish, mix with the locals, enjoy the sun, food and wine, and if you have a garden make the most of it, it’s very therapeutic.

    If you want to move back to Blighty, think of this as positive help: Present your property as best you can and de-clutter, a garden should be seen as extra living space albeit outside so make it look good and enjoy it anyway. We’ve just helped someone move back by this method, her house was chosen because it was clean and well presented and her garden was colourful.

    If you can bear to take a loss in Spain, don’t forget the exchange rate could be in your favour converting to Sterling, and, there are lots of discounted properties now in the UK so negotiate hard when you buy.

    Meanwhile get out and enjoy yourselves.

  23. Dave, thanks for the compliment. Yes, eating tapas is so much more important than, er, making a living and otherwise surviving. Are you another retiree? Btw, happy people always use lol. I haven’t met many positive Spanish people on my travels btw; most are desparate and worried.

    @Mike, how can moving from a euro currency be better for a person returning to the UK and buying a house in Sterling? lol.

  24. Fred, I guess Mike will answer for himself, but people who, for example, bought 6 years ago for €200000 at 1.48 to the £, paid £135000 then, and €200k now converts back to £161k. I have friends who have done this; In the meantime their house price here had doubled and has now halved back to what they paid initially, but they have got a better conversion back to £. I am fortunate to meet spanish people who are in work, and at least superficially are happy, even though they may be helping to support people in their extended family who are unemployed. I hope for better times for them, but not any time soon I fear.
    imho, still a great place to retire to. For me the wonderful climate this week compared to the grey wet short days in uk speaks for itself.

  25. Fred, never ask me out for a pint mate! I’d rather go and listen to Joy Division followed by Morrissey… amazing troll skills though if that’s what makes you happy! LOL

  26. Steve got it right in one, it’s called exchange rates. I’m sure lots of Brits say who bought a few years ago with the fact the Euro is stronger now against sterling now, (hard to believe) will find that if they could sell now things might not be too bad after all.

    Similar example to Steve’s. Someone with £200k bought a few years back at rate of 1.50 euros per pound, = 300k euros total spent on property.

    Lets say they manage to sell at 225k euros, a property fall of 25% if they are fortunate enough to have a good location, and convert back at say 1.20 then they get back £187,500 so not such a bad loss. Could be worse but might be better, but the point is, a buyer can take the hit in Spain and make it back on a canny purchase in the UK.

    In our case we were fortunate to buy a way back at rate of 1.64 so even taking a 30% drop in property price and a sale, we’d still just about break even in sterling terms.

    Mike also LOL

  27. I’ve not met anyone in recent times who is returning to the UK (and I’ve met a lot) who have not taken a large hit after selling up in Spain. Your sums are quite small. Ratchet it up to the 650-800+K mark and then you are looking at significant losses. The 1.64 rate was aeons ago. You still need more euros to buy more pounds, simples. Then there are estate agents fees, taxes, etc to add. Don’t forget you paid 7-10% of the asking price to purchase the property – do you get that back?

    You dummies would make great creative accountants – Barclays has some positions available in its Libor department I hear.

  28. I think you are the dummy Fred (or a troll)! You must know some very wealthy people if they paid 800k 5 years ago-200k is far more normal, or less. Of course you dont get back lawyers/agents fees but then no one suggested that.

    Mike’s point was, if you re-read it properly, that even if you take a hit in Spain you will get some benefit on the exchange rate. When I bought, I exchanged at 1.46 and if I repatriated now I would pay 1.23. Using your suggested 800k, that would get me £100k more than I paid all other things being equal-Mike’s point.

    Dont bother to apply for that Libor job fred…..there will be a few people ahead of you

  29. Steve, the property market was at its peak in 2007. You don’t know anything about the property market in Spain if you don’t even know that basic fact. In fact I doubt you even live in Estepona not to know that.

    All other things are not equal; you don’t break even by a long shot, and arguing that point is quite ridiculous as this entire article is about how much better financially it is for UK expats to purchase in Spain at the current time. Going the other way, Spain to UK, is not. lol according to you, you are the only person making money in Spain by moving back to the UK. Duh.

  30. Fred I had you down for being someone with a brain but clearly not. What don’t you understand about exchange rates?

    Going from Spain to the UK is the most likely chance of coming out with a smaller loss, and he’s not the only one to have done so, we’ve heard of several Brits who’ve moved back and more or less broken even, and what’s more, they’ve negotiated hard back in Blighty and come out on top. You conveniently forgot that point didn’t you? LOL

    It’s not going to be ‘much better financially for Brits to purchase in Spain at the current time’ as you say because of all the uncertainty around, how good will it be if Spain leaves the Euro, reverts to the Peseta and devalues, now even you can’t say for certain that won’t happen. BTW if it does happen, property prices are predicted to halve yet again. LOL

  31. Steve/Mike, Fred is acting like a troll possible in his own interests, possibly because he’s in negative equity or involved with Spain’s property market. His posts have all the hallmarks of a troll or an agent’s employee, a WUM. He’s talking out of his rear. If he only knows people who are making losses when they return then he obviously bought in the wrong place in Spain himself. He thinks he knows all about Spanish property but knows sweet FA about the UK property market where prices can be negotiated down too.

    @Fred LOL LOL LOL

  32. What a bunch of numskulls you lot are. Re-read the article. The pound is 25% stronger currently and that does nothing for a person selling in Spain and buying in the UK at the present time. Breaking even is imposible when the rates have changed – basic arithmetic.

    Paul, very foolish you make yourself look by making such assumptions. I’ve sold three houses in the UK in the last eight years and made a 200-300% profit on each. lol indeed.

  33. Fred,
    your missing the subtext – we are desperate to sell, please buy from me.

    Fred your profits in the UK housing market came about – because you bought at the right time. All this crap about selling and making a profit in the Spanish, or rather Andalucian property market is just that – pure doo-doo. If you bought 10-12 years ago you may be able to sell and not at a loss – so how many fall into that bracket – not a lot.

    As usual the usual idiots appear talking about Spanish sunshine when they really mean southern Spanish sunshine. Try telling that to those who live in Galicia/Cantabria/Asturius/Pay Vasco/Aragon/Castille y Leon and not least Cataluyna – Barcelona = humidity.

    If Spain leaves the Euro you will not believe the hyper-inflation that will result.

    What did one idiot write about Fred not buying in the right part of Spain – there is no right part. Forget the pointless argument about Spanish property and pay attention to the Catalans. If they decide to declare UDI and Madrid decides to use it’s army – remember Spain still has a citizen army and a lot of them are Catalans and Euskadi – a big problem. There are no German/Italian Fascists to back them up. On the other hand many foreigners will flock to fight for the Catalans – the result will go one way only this time.

    What should concern those living in Andalucia is what a triumphant Catalunya will do with the several hundred thousands of Andalucians who moved there in the good times and are now excess to requirements. It’s a good bet they will send them home.

    As for the overpaid egotists in Brussels – their opinion is worthless and irrelevant – there are over 7 regions in western Europe alone that don’t want to be controlled by aliens anymore and if these peoples don’t want it then they will reject it.

    Without Catalunya and Pay Vasco, Spain will disintegrate and the two regions that will crash in flames are unproductive Extramadura and Andalucia and that’s just for starters.

  34. You’re the numbskull Fred, the pound might be 20-25% stronger than it was AT THE TURN OF THE YEAR, get it? However it’s still 25% weaker against the Euro than several years ago get it? Basic arithmetic which you don’t understand, means that people like us who bought at 1.64 are still at worse losing a smallish amount, and breaking even or more at best converting back to Sterling.

    You don’t mention the bargains around now in the UK to make up some of any losses, nor do you mention the possible scenario of Spain leaving the Euro, going back to the Peseta and devaluing, plenty of talk that this could happen, methinks you are the numbskull old chap. LOL LOL

  35. fred does moan a bit but on this occasion he has the analysis correct i feel. we have just sold our place near Malaga and after the fees (agents fees and lawyer) and of course the big reduction in price (it lost nearly a third of it’s value since we bought in 2004!) we are looking at a big loss of close to £38,000. This is a massive hit for us and i amazed people on here seem to think 20 or 30K is a small amount! Its not to us!

    Nobody has mentioned that prices have collapsed in Spain, so the exchange rate is still not helping. if we could get the same price as we bought for then maybe we would have been better off. fred was also the only person to mention the 10% purchase tax, which is an extra cost not factored in. truth is that the pound is strong now and that means we need more euros to buy the same amount in sterling. prices have dropped in the UK for a few years but the disparity is so large between countries that you can’t get a quality place in the UK for the money. this is our experience anyway. we would have loved to stay in spain but its financial suicide with no end in sight.

  36. Spot on Sheila. Thank goodness someone still has common sense. All other things are not equal, that’s the point that the numskulls keep missing.

    Dave, I’d rather be a troll than a thicko. Luckily, I’m neither, and so far, and with a lot of luck, I’ve only gained from the property markets. I’ll keep my Spanish property until the market recovers again in a decade or so. Boom bust and all that.

  37. Sheila I don’t think Fred is right either I’m afraid, people aren’t talking on here that 20-30k is a small amount, only that it’s not as bad as some moaners like Fred say it is.

    Also, I think some of those examples already quoted include the 10-11% buying costs if read properly.

    Hope this makes you feel better but here is a factual very recent story. We know a lady who moved to Spain 5/6 years ago looking for a happy retirement with her husband. Last year he died leaving her on her own in an urbanisation of look-a-like villas. To cut a long story short, when they bought they paid 360k euros including costs. She was desperate to move back to the UK, it took a while but she kept lowering the price to 280k and sold for a net figure of 250k, so around 30% drop like yours. Converting her euros back to pounds she lost £30k similar to you but she was glad she could put it all behind her.

    Guess what, she recently bought a 4 bed Victorian red brick terrace house, full of character in Folkestone and because the sellers had found somewhere to buy she managed to get it for £180k which was £40k less than up for. Result, no financial loss, puts it down to experience and she’s happy near family and friends.The disparity is not so great as you think in some areas and nice ones too, but do your homework.

    Don’t listen to whingeing Fred, it can be done, it has been done, but where he’s wrong is saying now is a good time for the British to buy in Spain when the whole deck of cards could crash sometime.

  38. Oh dear Fred… Just by saying someone’s a ‘thicko’ proves you’re a TROLL! get it?… You pompous prat!

    …and the insult you’re calling us all is spelt ‘numbskulls’ by the way
    LOL – as you like to say

  39. Dave et al, I’ve caught Fred out, what an idiot he looks now:

    He says ‘so far I’ve only gained from the property markets’, but then contradicts and says ‘I’ll keep my Spanish property until the market recovers again in a decade or so’

    This means he is clearly nursing a rather big drop in value of his Spanish property, so he’s not gained at all, he probably can’t sell which looks as if he wants to by his comments. However he knows he will have to wait 10 years or more.

    This brings me to numbskull Fred’s point that he’s actually got a vested interest in talking up the property market in Spain, hence the reason he mistakenly says ‘it’s a good time to buy’. LOL LOL

  40. Calm down Paul, you really are grasping at straws now aren’t you? Caught me out? Er, no.

    I have gained – from the UK market. You need to slow down and read more carefully. No contradictions, it’s just you’re so desperate to gain points that you make lots of errors in the process. I own properties in three different parts of the world and spend time at all three. And yes, the Spanish market may recover, eventually. 10 years is a good guess.

    It is a good time to buy, if you have Sterling – this is what the entire article is about if you just take the time to read it properly. I have posted extensively about how bad Spain has been as an investment, but I have not lost any money in Spain as I have not yet sold my property, and it is not even up for sale! You only know what loss you have made at that point. If I sold now in Spain, then yes, I’d probably make a loss, like the vast majority of people. I bought a ruin and expect to sell it for more than I purchased it when it is fully renovated, so I might even make a profit yet. In hindsight it was not worth the hassle, but hindsight is a beautiful thing.

    Angie, you can’t live on the basis of what might happen in the future otherwise you’d end up never making a decision on anything in life, would you? I note your friend still made a loss, and of course there are other financial losses in terms of stamp duty to pay again, removal/storage charges, pet transport, and on the list goes, unfortunately. It is a good time to buy in Spain, but I would I recommend people do this? The answer is a resounding no (Paul, please take note that I can say it is a good time to buy in Spain but I can also tell people that I would not personally advise it.)

    Btw Paul, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I’m glad you are lol’ing away, but do try and keep up since it’s tiresome having to constantly correct you. Btw, numskull and numbskull are interchangable.

  41. Are you a few screws loose Fred, you do seem to be? I said our friend got out of Spain with a loss that she immediately made up by buying in the UK, in fact in spite of other costs she came out just in profit, do you have a problem understanding posts? Can’t you accept that some people successfully relocate back to the UK even now without major losses?

    As Paul explains you clearly say you’ve only ever made profits on property but not so with your Spanish property is it? He did catch you out BTW LOL You even say ‘if I sold now in Spain I’d probably make a loss’, I have news for you, you would make a loss silly. When did you buy, what price did you pay, where did you buy, what was the exchange rate, it would be interesting to know.

    You’re all talk Fred, believe you started calling posters numskulls correct spelling is numbskull, now I’m going to do it you numptyhead! LOL LOL LOL

  42. Fred you’re the one who tried calling other posters numbskulls, if you want to dish it out then have it back, if you weren’t so rude to others you might come across as a bit credible.

    You don’t own the rights to LOL by the way, even Prime Ministers and others use it so don’t flatter yourself. I see you are back tracking a bit on your latest post too, a bit unsure are you, nursing a loss in Spain? Look here Fred you big yourself up as to your profit making with property and especially in the UK, guess what, most people could have made a profit in the UK over the last 8 years only they don’t boast about it like you! Have also sold 3 properties very well in different parts of UK over same period, but you like to quote your percentage profit (who asked you)what an oversized head you have but since you like to quote figures why don’t you answer Angie’s question about your Spanish investment at the same time?


  43. Angie, you must be related to the other posters since you too cannot comprehend simple concepts. How do I know what loss, or profit, my property in Spain has made when I have not even put it on the market? Even when it’s on the market the final price is still unknown as someone may make an offer. I paid next to nothing for the property so I expect I will make a profit, yes you read correctly, a profit – unlike you lot who keep making losses lol.

    Paul, if I have an oversized head then you must have a pea-sized brain. And Dave/Angie, please read and learn: “http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/numbskull”

    Also, the PM used LOL with its alternative meaning, ‘Lots Of Love’ which I, of course, would never do because the uppercase version of lol is quite different to the lowercase version. So thanks for your affections, most amusing.

  44. Fred Numbskull you boasted all your property dealings had made profits and then I agree with above that your big head was bursting to put your percentage profit, then you said you might have to wait 10 years. Are you the Troll named Fred who once stalked some Spanish property forums?. You’re a sad case of a WUM who loves to flatter himself whilst winding up others. The ‘correct’ spelling of the word is ‘numbskull’ your spelling of it is a variant, however the meaning ‘a foolish or stupid person’ does rather fit you it would seem. Why don’t you answer the questions you have been asked?LOL LOL

  45. Mike, you need to get a grip. You sound very wound up – are you in negative equity perhaps?

    The spelling is correct and in all the dictionaries you care to ever look up. Your constant reference to that one trivial issue shows that you have no other valid arguments to utilise. Thanks for agreeing that the spelling of numskull is valid.

    Also, I didn’t say I’d wait 10 years to sell, I said the market might recover in 10 years. I can’t help it if what I tell you annoys you, Mike. I was asked, and I told you.

    Lots of love to you too, lol.

  46. Hi Paul … no, I’m not an agent! But as I own a place near Ronda, I’m delighted to say prices here are the same as 5yrs ago. And not many places can make that claim!

  47. Guys, Just ignore this Fred-he and his specious arguments are not worth the time of day. He gets off by trying to wind people up, so just ignore him and deny him that pleasure

  48. Anna, the price of a property is only what someone is willing to pay for it, therfore to say prices in Ronda are the same as they were 5 years ago is absolutely meaningless, as: a) you don’t know what someone is willing to pay for it and; b) you don’t know all the prices of every property in Ronda, do you Anna? Can’t wait to see you answer that, if you do at all that is, lol.

    Steve, telling people to ignore someone because you don’t agree with them is the epitome of defeat.

  49. ‘Mike, you need to get a grip. You sound very wound up – are you in negative equity perhaps?’


    you owe people on here an apology!

  50. I had a quick read a few of these posts. Creative accounting is going on here. I purchased properties in Spain and still have them. The first one I purchased was over 13 year ago. Of course it would have gone up in that time and if I sold it now there would be a profit, but if I had purchased in the UK with the same amount of money I would have made a bit less than double the profit of Spain and at least in the UK I could sell the place. The other thing is, I say there is a profit in Spain, but when you can’t rent the properties out other than the kids holidays, and you have maintenance and upkeep, I doubt if there is a profit as all. Spain is only a good place to buy if you have the outright cash and you can afford to retire, or you are using it as a lifestyle choice and money is not an issue, but even then with thousands of illegal properties, the Prior’s case, I would not advise anyone to buy there. Personally, my experience with the macho town hall people and with corruption everywhere the shine went a long time ago. Sunshine alone is not enough for me and other than drinking and smoking yourself to death or sunbathing if you do not find that too boring there is not a lot to do. After a few years I had enough. My advice is, if you buy a place, use it as a holiday home, only go for four weeks a year and it will take you longer to realise how bad it is, so the illusion will last longer.

  51. Dave, are you tired again? Funny how when people lose an argument they immediately ask for apologies and demand action. You should apologise for me – go back and review your own language first. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

  52. Anna, I’m sure that in certain parts of Spain, you mention Ronda, a well bought and well looked after property may be the same price now as several years ago, so this means too that you will have gained on the exchange rate if you sold it now and converted back to Sterling no doubt so don’t listen to WUM Fred. A well looked after house in the UK will always sell over others too in a reasonable location.

    Fred, you’re too wound up and ill mannered to apologise to anyone, no-one really expects you to apologise of course HA HA! You like to attack anyone you don’t agree with, what a tw*t, not even a reasoned reposte!

  53. Doesn’t matter is Fred is correct over any facts – that’s not the point is it! He’s a TROLL! look at any thread… it’s how he talks to people mainly to get reactions so he feels better!

  54. Dave, the facts are important to me, the personal battles that go on are entertainment but the facts are the facts. Most people come on here stating that Fred is negative, but he is giving good advice stating not to invest in Spain. Anyone who has studied economics would know about supply and demand. If you invest in a property within many other Countries you can rent them out fairly quickly. In Spain there is so much supply for rentals and also for sale, that investing is not an area I would advise anyone. You only have to look at how many people are willing to rent their properties for peanuts to see the real situation. To sell a back log of 1 million properties takes years. Even then, like now, every other person I know has a holiday home so most people know someone who they can rent from so that market is so much more difficult than the UK. Sure you may pick up a cheap property but if you cannot rent it or sell it, then you will be losing money every year with the upkeep. Lifestyle yes, invest no. Don’t forget annual service charges on a good development with pool cleaners and gardeners, admin staff, maybe security. Annual prices will range from £500 to sky is the limit. Add the expensive electricity, water, cleaners ……. One of my places is due a refurb, new bathroom, new floor, the list goes on. My kids will soon be old enough to go on holiday with their mates in the summer, maybe they will have kids of their own one day, so it is a lifestyle choice, not an investment. The only ones making money in Spain are the underhand lawyers, estate agents and some officials. That is why they are the 136th most difficult Country to set up a business in. Having said the above, for retirement it is a fairly safe country, unless you get conned into buying an illegal property then you could be homeless.

  55. “Doesn’t matter is Fred is correct over any facts – that’s not the point is it!”

    lol, oh no, the facts don’t matter according to Dave. Now we can see who really is the t*wat here. Best get back to bed.

    “a well bought and well looked after property may be the same price now as several years ago”

    Maybe. Maybe not. You don’t know. This is called pure speculation.

  56. Troll Alert!

    Dave, Paul, Mike, Steve and others.

    An internet Troll is a person who delights in sowing discord on the internet, he likes to start arguments and upset people. They see it as an achievement to inflict suffering under the anonymity of the net which allows them to flourish. They are impervious to criticism, you can’t negotiate with them, they do not feel bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility. They want established posters to leave forums by stirring up negative emotions on topics.

    Best to ignore them although they will step up their attacks, so let’s post our views as if Fred doesn’t exist?

    He will read this and attack me as a result, but I will laugh at him as I hope you guys will too, ho ho ho.

    So let’s flatter him which he wants by a few of his silly lols, lols, lols which he doesn’t own!

  57. Time to look at another thread Fred and work out how to annoy the people on there too! what a pathetic life you lead (hiding behind your little computer)

    ‘Mike, you need to get a grip. You sound very wound up – are you in negative equity perhaps?’

    if that’s not really annoyingly confrontational I don’t know what is

    Adios amigos – good luck trying to fight this really transparent human being!

    I’m outta here!

  58. Dave, review your own posts before criticising others. The reason why you failed so miserably on this thread is because you chose just to criticise and gang up on the person whose views you don’t agree with. Seems you lot can dish it out but can’t take it back.

  59. Dave, I’ve got a tough skin so can take his vitriol, but have decided to do as Angie has suggested, btw Dave you’ve not failed miserably on this thread, laugh at him Dave and consider Angie’s aptly worded description of him, she was right though, ignore such people and he will step up his attacks but who cares?

    @him lol lol lol

  60. Happy Xmas Dave,Angie, Mike etc! As I said, leave Fractious Fred to talk to himself -he doesnt have anything to say that is worth listening too and is just a sad wind up merchant. I’m out of here too, but no doubt he will reappear as Mr. negative on some other thread

  61. Yeh sorry guys – I’m normally really positive & constructive & only have hope for everyone… I’ve never come across someone who’s actually made me angry before on the internet. I don’t think it’s to do with failing or winning on here – even Fred you’re probably an alright guy.. just tough to come across on your computer/and on this website without personally sounding like an idiot. Adios! rock on everybody! Keep this great website going! Viva España! Feliz Navidad!

  62. There are some long farewells going on here!! I have been reading Fred’s posts for the last couple of years and I can see he lives there and has not just arrived in Spain. We all start off positive regarding Spain. I would not mind giving it another go in 15 years, growing veg and keeping chickens on my land, solar panels, a wind turbine..

  63. Dave, et al, you have not understood the most basic of things, namely that my opinions are just as valid as yours. Any one reading this thread can see the overwhelming level of insults belong to the other posters, and numskull and thicko are easily the least insulting phrases used.

  64. Quote ‘Dave, et al, YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD THE MOST BASIC OF THINGS’ says the one who knows all, opinionated Fred, yes he means all of us! lol

    Goes on ‘the overwhelming level of insults BELONG TO THE OTHER POSTERS’ says one sided, blinkered and opinionated Fred, yes he means all of us! lol

    Knew he couldn’t keep away nor keep quiet, that’s what they do folks! Watch for his next one sided and illogical attack!


  65. Paul, ignore that ‘Got to Have the Last Word Troll’ I said he would go on the attack again, it’s what they do despite the accurate post of yours above pointing out his failures, he’s so sad, he will always have a peep at this topic and cannot resist saying such drivel, he’s lost the plot. lol lol lol lol

  66. Keep guessing Jim, you’re so wide of the mark it is most amusing.

    Angie, I see you’ve heeded my advice and changed your LOL to lower case, well done. If you keep going at this rate you may even learn two acronyms properly by the end of the year lol.

  67. sorry to post again guys.. something made me ‘LOL’

    ‘ROTFL – An incorrect spelling of ROFL. Generally employed by individuals who are not well acquainted with chatspeak, but are trying their best to fit in.’

    have a good evening!

  68. Oh dear, another Internet noob who needs a dictionary just to work out what phrase to use. Most entertaining to see your total inability to win a grown-up argument. I am all on your minds 24/7, I must have struck a nerve, lol.

  69. Err, no. If that’s a knock out punch then you must be a featherweight lol. Keep posting Jim, it just further reinforces what I have already said above.

    Meanwhile, everyone is making a loss when selling their places in Spain. No need to argue; just basic facts.

  70. Couldn’t resist coming back could he (Troll) but found another flaw in his posts so will remind him?

    He says above ‘I am all on your minds’ rather than ‘I am on all your minds’, his version suggests he’s a lump and he’s put ‘all’ of himself on us, what a numbskull HA HA HA!

    On another post of his he cannot even spell Malaga or Gardener’s properly, preferring his quaint pre-school version of Malage and Garderner’s HA HA HA. Also had the cheek to tell the Olive Press of their faults about an article.

    Jim won that one before and swatted that pesky gnat, might need a strong insecticide though! Let’s all laugh at him LOL LOL LOL He will be back, must be so lonely doing up his cheap rural property!

  71. mike and jim sound like little children. fred did not descend to this level at least. here in france the property market is depressed as well and we expect to make a 25% loss assuming we can even find a buyer, so it is not just spain.

  72. Ah love it, when we get to the spelling errors we know that the opposition has totally lost the plot. Thanks guys, you’ve made my week now. Jim’s turn next, or is it perhaps you’re all the same person? Where’s Dave?? lol.

    Mike, you sound very frustrated. Perhaps you should go back to the UK if you can’t cut it here?

  73. Toni, (or Fred) suggest you read his posts properly where he seems to berate most others from the start, the guy does it on other topics too. Doesn’t seem to have many friends.

    What makes him think I live in Spain, I don’t, he’s a guesser!

    Not sure what France has to do with the subject other than the property market, the only similarity is the current state of the market, I happen to like France and they didn’t do the mass built urbanisations that happened in Spain, it’s also an easy drive from UK if Crying Air’s O’Leary keeps racking his fares up, or anyone else for that matter.

    Fred, you sound very frustrated ROFL

  74. Can’t believe you’re backing up this rodent Toni!!!

    er… you started the spelling error thing Fred: ‘It’s rotfl, Mike.’ & got THAT wrong. haha

    Do you talk like this when out and about?
    There’s no way you’d survive talking this pompous to people haha

  75. Jim, or Dave, or Mike, or Steve, or whichever numskull name you choose: “What makes him think I live in Spain, I don’t”

    Ah so the truth outs. Yet another person who writes on Spanish blogs and doesn’t even live abroad. Duh, Mike even surpasses numskull status. Btw Jim, ROTFL is the original version, the first and original; your version is mainly used by schoolchildren, which is of course why you chose to use it lol.

    Toni, you’re spot on. Just imagine how these people go in real life when they lose an argument. They’ve lost this one so badly they just have to change the subject to things like spellings and acronyms to divert attention away.

  76. Hi Reap,
    sensible posts as always – you will note that none of the pack replied to the points in your posts.

    Fred, we have had our differences but you are rational in your arguments as opposed to the rat pack of little englanders.

    Angie (pack member) you pack is quite lame compared to those on audio forums. Your pack is talking financial b/s and Fred is’nt and you can’t take it so you attack in numbers, he does’nt feel threatened but your pack does.

    If you feel the need to make ‘brownshirt attacks’ on someone why not try the real troll – Unreality. he knows everything about everything and everyone and is always right.

    There are so many serious problems facing Spain and 99% of those who post here are in denial, just like most of the Spanish unfortunately.

    Reap said 15 years to clear the backlog of 1 million crap built properties – and then some. By then of course a lot of this rubbish will have collapsed – if Catalunya, the most modern of regions has apartment blocks falling down after only 20 years – go figure. Of course when the big quake comes the whole lot will fall down.

    Toni – as I’m sure you are aware the English estate agents talk the same b/s in France as well. I don’t know where you live in France, I live in the Aveyron and I can assure you that when plots of land come up for sale here they sell fast and that’s on lotissements, which I have no interest in at all. I should also add that these lotissement plots that sell have to be very near to RNs or autoroutes and not too far from centres of population. If your home is deep in the countryside you will definately have a hard time selling.

    As Reap said – southern Spain is fine for slobs who don’t do anything but for the active who are’nt silly, you can write off outdoor activities for at least 6 months of the year, at least when we lived in Galicia we could go for rainswept walks all year round but only an idiot goes out in 100F heat.

    Quite frankly the USA is a far better/safer bet than Spain – incredible countryside/dirt cheap property prices – anyone want a holiday home around the Great Lakes for $1-2K. How about the Carolinas or Georgia or something completely different like Colorado or New Mexico – now that’s real space of course you will need to buy a shooter or two but don’t forget why the Spanish have security grilles across their windows and how many really powerful rifles the Spanish hunters have – as I well know the Spanish think all foreigners are rich – think on.

    All in all with hindsight I’m glad we would never have got permission to build an alt. energy house – Spain has got a few world class companies but they are the exception. Instead of having a go at Fred you really need to start thinking what all those unemployed Spanish are going to do when there’s nowhere left to turn – that day is just around the corner.

  77. no, Fred you’re mixing up who to abuse now…

    and Stuart – you honestly read that nobs remarks and say he’s always rational.. rather than JUST confrontational for the sake of it?

    You’re in Fred’s pack then haha

  78. Jim, nob is spelt with a K. I can’t believe you would come on here and make such a basic spelling mistake as that, shocking. But I’m pleased that you concur with me on the profit and loss issue.

  79. Hi Jim, he does suffer from paranoia including delusions of grandeur and feelings of persecution etc. Thinks nearly everyone is against him. I’ve worked with patients displaying those traits but it was hard going.

    He can only see his point of view no matter what others say, where he castigates others for lack of knowledge of acronyms etc which he started even though he often gets them wrong himself, he cannot accept his spelling mistakes as similar faults and then twists it on others as in his last post to you.

    He is clutching at straws too by trying to belittle others who may not live in Spain now although he knows nothing about where they have lived, why should others justify their
    life history.

    However, Paranoia is not easy to help medically with certain people, he thinks we are all the same person too whilst not expecting us to think the same about him and other names here.

    He won’t feel happy until he thinks he has won and he will constantly look back on here just in case he needs to have the last word, again and again and again.

    Unfortunately he does need help but from who, he is soooooooo unreasonable.

  80. Angie, as anyone knows, the only people with real issues are the people who call themselves “therapists” and “analysts”. Most therapists become therapists to sort out their own personal issues. I’d guess that is what you are doing.

    Most boring having to keep correcting you, but anyway just for the record… I was not the first person to mention spelling errors, it was Dave (read the page again, very very slowly Angie). I only use one acronym, so it would be a bit difficult to get that wrong lol; all others mentioned are in the various online dictionaries and nobody has yet to correct me on the spelling of ‘numskull’ either (also in the dictionary, but Paul can’t use one properly.)

    I do make speling errors, as I am human, and a quick search will reveal hundreds. Spellings on blog posts and twitter are not important. Aoccdrnig to a rseearch taem at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. I bet you could read and understand that ok?

    Angie, I suspect you are one of those people who moved to Spain as you didn’t have the qualifications to practice in the UK, and probably now latch on to poor unsuspecting and stressed-out expats in Spain (where anyone and their dog can be a “therapist”) to counsel them with their non-existent problems. Perhaps you should go and analyse the rest of the pack, or even yourself, first, before inflicting your psycho-babble on other people you have never met?

    I’m sure you will be checking back in to see if there is a response Angie, lol.

  81. sorry Angie, pay no attention! he’s such as ABUSIVE git!

    this guy has no life at all – I honestly just come on here (for a laugh by the way!) to see if he’s STILL responding haha… & trust me I doubt that you’re in people’s thoughts at all Fred as you think.. (the definition of DELUDED?)

    SOOOOOOO much time spent WORKING OUT WHAT TO SAY!!!!! (HAHAAAA proper nutter) to wind people up, and writing your tedious antagonistic confrontational lines on here… Mr NO life or what?

    all Fred fans, this is what he’s said:

    ‘Angie, I suspect you are one of those people who moved to Spain as you didn’t have the qualifications to practice in the UK’

    ‘You dummies would make great creative accountants – Barclays has some positions available in its Libor department I hear.’

    ‘Perhaps Steve can tell us about the 100.000+ illegal homes in the UK? Oh wait, there are none. UK House values down 30% in 5 years? Here in Spain that’s 1 years’ fall. But it’s all ok, it’s all part of Steve’s life.’

    ‘Well said Steve. As long as you are ok, that’s all that matters. Just saying.’

    ‘What a bunch of numskulls you lot are.’

    ‘I’d rather be a troll than a thicko. Luckily, I’m neither, and so far, and with a lot of luck, I’ve only gained from the property markets.’

    ‘imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I’m glad you are lol’ing away, but do try and keep up since it’s tiresome having to constantly correct you. Btw, numskull and numbskull are interchangable.’

    ‘Ah so the truth outs. Yet another person who writes on Spanish blogs and doesn’t even live abroad. (so what?…. ) Duh, Mike even surpasses numskull status.’

    is this rational? (Stuart? Reap? … or Fred?) is this kind? is this constructive? is this normal? or is this the voice of just ‘an internet troll’

    PEACE be with you all! Spain is great!

    WHAT A ****! please reply with an answer if you like anyone

  82. All that vitriol from him and more on just one topic to anyone he doesn’t agree with Jim & Angie etc then he says ‘I am human’, disturbed or what? HILARIOUS !!!!!

  83. Jim, et al, you have to learn to give and take. If you send insults, be prepared to get some back. Btw Jim, I just organised Christmas dinner. For 15. Keep guessing in the meantime.

    Mike, go and whine on a UK forum – funny why you kept quiet that you were in the UK, until you fell right in my trap. lol.

  84. Stuart: ‘you really need to start thinking what all those unemployed Spanish are going to do when there’s nowhere left to turn – that day is just around the corner.’ This is way too negative mate.. like an imminent zombie apocalypse round the corner.. This won’t happen surely haha

    I’m sure, like us, if you’ve lived in your area for a few years, you get to know all the locals. Any serious trouble round our way can be dealt with straight away – we all know the policia local… The Spanish get on with our local Germans French and English etc. We all LIKE each other, help each other out (not just Brits helping Brits), and talk to each other (something we never did as much in the uk to our neighbours/locals you know the face of). And the Spanish youth and Spanish in general have 300% more style and respect than people in the uk. You can see Brits coming a mile away. Not slagging our nation off… just saying it’s not as ‘doom’ as you think for Spain. Got to be positive and constructive for the future! Most doom talk seems to be on British forums. I don’t think think the Spanish want to have another Civil War?!?!… like people refer to on here.


  85. Jim, that’s just your opinion, but you really should go and see Angie for some therapy. Your deep envious nature will ultimately harm you.

    I had the mayor around for a vino last week, I must know the locals very well lol.

  86. btw Fred – news just in: I’ve got a nephew who’s doing a school project on INTERNET TROLLS!! haha – I showed him your comments and he’s going to actually use them to show how it’s not just young anonymous kids who get away with it in their bedrooms!

    So you’ll be famous after all Fred! just what you want probably

    it’s studying the tactics people use… the way sentences are phrased for put downs


  87. What’s to boast about seeing your mayor? If you don’t know your mayor then you are hardly integrated into local life. I see mine most days when out and about. Not rocket science, is it?

    Best go and attend to your ‘patients’ Angie. Your response is completley at odds with your supposed profession – it completely proves you are not a therapist of any kind whatsoever, and certainly not one who has patients, since such a professional would never engage in such communication. Very easy to catch you out.

  88. Fred: This is another TROLL statement. There’s NOTHING remotely nasty about my REACTIONS to you. (READ BACK and read all your nasty comments to people). Keep them coming though, so the kids of the future can learn about people like you! You’re an absolute disgrace!

    …anyhow, as far as people Flocking to Spain, just don’t flock anywhere near where Fred lives!

  89. SORRY EVERYONE. This must be really boring to read…

    Does ANYONE fancy taking the baton from me? or do you think there’s just no point

    I thought there might be one ounce of compassion in this guy to say just a couple of nice words to someone.. turn the troll just for one second…

    At least one thing, if you see the name FRED on threads, just watch your back & don’t waste your time like I’ve done… although some LEARNING has come out of this…. and I hope I’ve shown him up as much as possible.


    (Fred’s reply will be.. you’re the one who’s shown yourself up etc etc pompous this pompous that etc etc I know the mayor etc)

  90. He can’t help it Jim, that’s what internet trolls are like, he will always post back some derogatory comment even to those who’ve not posted for a day or so, to provoke more reaction, this makes him believe he has won. Whatever anyone says that he doesn’t like he will always post a retort. It’s what he does best, a W.U.M.

  91. definitely proper terminator stuff Mike! on and on and on

    hope everyone Flocks to Spain anyhow! They certainly are where we go to the coast… it’s great! Multi cultural european living. Most are extremely active in the community too. Viva España!

  92. It’s over Fred, I don’t care about myself at all by the way!! …just hope I’ve shown you up a bit for the person you are – that was my only aim


  93. I find it incredible that most of the people on here who are writing are slating either the newspaper or an agents you are so negative. Most of you will never be here because it will never be right for you regardless of exchange rate. I am half Spanish and i will agree the Spanish got it all wrong in the last up turn it was crazy but that was the market then. We made a decision to leave the UK sell up all homes and businesses and start again was it a risk? of course but we are here because we made a decision and we have new business and a new lifestyle and would not swap it for the world. One Life One Chance! If you value something and its right go for it do not wait till it gets better. Its today not tomorrow.

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